Government Operations Committee on Oct. 16th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 145 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as the mighty OGGO.

We have two witnesses with us today. We'll start with five-minute statements from each of them.

We'll start with Ms. Semaganis.

I'll start with you for five minutes, please.

[Crystal Semaganis, Leader, Ghost Warrior Society]

Thank you, sir.

My name is Crystal Semaganis. I'm here on behalf of the Ghost Warrior Society against first nations, Métis and Inuit identity fraud.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry to interrupt. There is a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I apologize for interrupting the witness.

I don't know if others are getting noise confusion through the headsets, but I couldn't hear your introduction. I think interpretation might have been speaking over the witness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks. We'll start again.

Why don't you start again at the beginning, and we'll see if our interpretation system is working properly?

[Crystal Semaganis]

My name is Crystal Semaganis. I come to you from the N’dakimenan, which is the traditional territory of the Temagami First Nation and the Teme-Augama Anishnabai, where I live with my children.

I am the leader of the Ghost Warrior Society against first nations, Métis and Inuit identity fraud. We are a grassroots collective of volunteers made up of activists from across all sectors, whether they be arts and entertainment, academia, culture or language, virtually all facets of first nations, Métis and Inuit life. We have been meeting for over three years, because we saw a deficit in the data collected in regard to first nations, Métis and Inuit identity fraud.

For the purpose of this session, I will be saying the word “indigenous”, but I specifically mean first nations, Métis and Inuit.

It is important to know that we have been gathering information for decades. I have been immersed in this issue for decades, as I see, as a sixties scoop survivor, the roles of my people supplanted by those who say they are us, but they are not us. There is one key concept that I want to impart to you today, and that is the acronym CPAIN, which stands for “corporations posing as indigenous nations”. When it comes to reconciliation, we have a performative element that is consistent across the board, in all sectors across this nation, in which individuals and corporations are pretending to be indigenous and take up spaces to which they are not entitled.

CPAIN is a term that is derived from our affiliates that we work with across Turtle Island, most notably the Tribal Alliance Against Frauds, which essentially does exactly what we do but in the United States. We collaborate often, because the people whom we expose as fraudulent and who are taking up space to which they are not entitled move freely across this continent.

The issue of CPAIN is far-reaching. In our meetings—our volunteer meetings with zero resources, as we have been meeting for over three years—we have discovered that there are billions of dollars in resources that are pilfered by corporations, entities and individuals who are pretending to be indigenous when they are not, hence the term “pretendians” and “pretendianism”. This is a very serious issue, and we do not wish to suggest otherwise by using the word “pretend”. We use it for ease of conversation for those who must speak about this issue.

For us, the Ghost Warrior Society, one of the most horrific corporations that we have had to deal with over these last few decades has pilfered over $163 million since 1994, posing as an indigenous nation when they are not indigenous. That is the NunatuKavut Community Council.

I implore you all to watch a two-minute video from inuitknow.ca. It clearly positions Inuit people and their view on the NunatuKavut, which has morphed from the Labrador Métis Association into the giant corporation gobbling up first nations, Métis and Inuit resources to which it is not entitled. As recently as last month, it received $24.4 million to erect a new treaty centre in their lands.

Finally, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples is the pretendians' gate to funding. They also rally on behalf of the NunatuKavut and other entities that claim to be indigenous to garner money and resources. The sole purpose of pretendianism is first nations, Métis and Inuit resource acquisition, and it must stop. There must be legal sanctions to curb the pilfering and the unregulated, unstudied theft of very limited first nations, Métis and Inuit resources.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Carignan, we'll turn it over to you, please, for five minutes.

[Denis Carignan, President, PLATO Testing]

Thank you very much, and thank you for the opportunity to address the committee today.

My name is Denis Carignan, but I grew up in Saskatchewan.

I'll continue on in English, just because I'm more at ease in English.

I'm president and co-founder of a company called Plato. We are an IT services company that was founded in New Brunswick in 1997. It's a company that, at first, operated for a little over 20 years of its existence as a non-indigenous-owned company. I'm a first nations person from Saskatchewan, from the Pasqua First Nation.

I met the original founder of that company in 2015, and we had the idea to create a company that would seek to invest in indigenous Canadians and first nations, Inuit and Métis citizens to help them develop skills and provide employment within the technology sector. What began as a conversation in May 2015 has turned into a company that now employs over 140 first nations, Inuit and Métis citizens. It's a company that employs around 400 employees from Halifax to Victoria, British Columbia.

We have developed, over the course of our history, a training program. It's essentially a new application of an apprenticeship model and a training model that's been around for hundreds of years in skilled trades. Really, the focus is to identify indigenous Canadians who are interested in pursuing careers in technology and provide market-based learning with some accreditation through New Brunswick Community College, as well as micro-certifications that are useful in building a career in technology.

To date, we are at about $40 million in annual revenues in terms of consulting revenues. We are a nearly 30-year-old company that became majority indigenous-owned in January 2022. Since becoming majority indigenous-owned, we have sought to find a way to be a part of federal government procurement projects. To date, almost 100% of our revenue comes from the private sector, provincial organizations or organizations across North America, with about 12% of our revenues annually coming from American-based companies.

We are an outsource company. We're able to provide employment opportunities for Canadians who either reside in cities or have developed skills and reside outside of cities. In fact, we have a handful of employees, about 10, who are at home working and generating a livelihood in their home communities. These communities range from the Flying Dust First Nation in northwestern Saskatchewan to the Okanese First Nation in southern Saskatchewan and a handful of others across the country.

In terms of trying to become a vendor for the Government of Canada, we understood that the Government of Canada is a very sophisticated buyer. It's a buyer that prefers scale, so it is set up for organizations that are very large international consulting companies to do better on projects. We definitely understood that, but our model of developing indigenous technology professionals really involves working on projects so that we can develop the skills and expertise that folks can use to build their careers and acumen over time.

We know that we're able to actually generate employment opportunities, with the most senior of our indigenous technology resources now entering their ninth year of professional experience. They're no longer entry-level or junior-level resources; they're now intermediates and are starting to specialize in different technology areas ranging from software testing, which is our primary service offering, to other areas like business analysis or project management, which are different skills that are in demand in the technology sector across Canada and across the world.

We knew, coming into the Government of Canada, that some certifications were required, so over the course of the last two and a half years, we've certainly sought to become registered in the indigenous business directory and have sought certifications under the TBIPS process to make sure we qualify for projects of that nature. One of our offices is certified for controlled goods. We've worked through the secret-level security process. We've also become a technology partner with the likes of companies like SAP, Microsoft and Tricentis, which are industry leaders whose products are used by the Government of Canada.

Really, the goal for us is to become a company that qualifies as a vendor and, in so doing, we've learned a lot. We know that the Government of Canada is a formidable place to become a vendor, but as a company that is new—and not new, because we're almost 30 years old—we believe we have some insights and offerings we can provide that can be of help to this committee in terms of its mandate of looking at indigenous procurement across Canada.

With that, I'll say hay hay and thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We'll start with Mr. Genuis for six minutes, please.

Go ahead, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses.

Thank you for the opportunity we have with this important meeting to discuss the issue of indigenous procurement and some of the abuses we've heard about. They were through the arrive scam scandal initially, and now we've heard more through some further investigations that have been done.

We've heard from indigenous leaders who have said there is a significant problem in this indigenous procurement space with companies that are not indigenous or are perhaps misusing the rules that allow the primary beneficiaries to be non-indigenous companies, and this is the spirit in which we're engaging in this important study.

I'll start with a question for the Ghost Warrior Society.

There are probably three distinct categories we can look at of abuse or potential abuse when it comes to indigenous procurement. One is the complete fabrication or misrepresentation by a company of indigenous identity. Another is the misuse of joint ventures. You have a joint venture officially gaining advantage of a contract that's been set aside for indigenous peoples, but in effect, virtually all of the benefit from that contract is going to the non-indigenous partner. You then have the case of contracting and subcontracting, where you have a very small shell company getting contracts and then subcontracting all the work to non-indigenous companies.

In all of these different kinds of cases, we're seeing efforts by the government to say it's checked the box in indigenous procurement, but substantively, no benefit or very limited benefit is going to indigenous people. Part of the problem we see behind this is that the government is maintaining its own list of indigenous businesses that is not consistent with lists that are put together by indigenous organizations themselves.

I want to just drill down on the indigenous procurement issue. Why do you think the federal government would maintain its own list? Why is the federal government struggling to actually define the parameters of a program that would see indigenous people being the primary beneficiaries?

[Crystal Semaganis]

Through our initial forays and research into this multi-faceted issue, the problem is that there is no unified or central body that authenticates indigenous identity or monitors these agreements once they have been set up. When you define first nations, Métis and Inuit identity, that varies from region to province and territory federally and provincially, and there is just no central body that oversees everything. There are a lot of piecemeal efforts being made across the country. For instance, there's something that's academic-specific, something that's specific to arts and culture, and something specific to economic development that adheres to procurement. That's only 5%, so when you look at non-indigenous interests, they already have 95% of the market, and for them to exploit and have considerable impact on that remaining 5% for first nations, Métis and Inuit is a travesty, for sure.

There need to be some more concrete measures and some more meaningful sanctions put into place for those who abuse the system.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

To follow up on that, I think some members of the government will say, and have said in past meetings, that identity can be really complicated, that there can be marginal or ambiguous cases and that there might be some cases on which different indigenous peoples disagree about how that identity is precisely defined. However, I think there are also many clear-cut cases we've seen of how the federal government isn't keeping track of subcontracts. It's supposed to have this rule that when there's an indigenous procurement set-aside, a certain percentage of the subcontracts are indigenous, and there's no tracking of that whatsoever. That seems not so much like responding to difficulty, but sheer negligence and disregard for the results.

What do you make of this lack of information tracking that we've seen?

[Crystal Semaganis]

When it comes to the issue of first nations, Métis and Inuit identity fraud, there is a lot of work to be done to displace the self-identification of indigenous identity. Self-identification is one model that has been in place for decades, since the early 1990s. It's problematic and has always been subject to failure and exploitation.

The problem with self-identification is that it relies on an honour system. As we know, there are many interests out there that are not honourable and will bend the rules, lie and misrepresent themselves in favour of economic gain. Without an authoritative body to oversee all of these facets, right from conception all the way to development, project delivery and maintenance, they will continue to be—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Just quickly, on that question of an authoritative body, wouldn't it be simpler for the federal government just to have engaged indigenous organizations that are working on these issues of indigenous business already, rather than try to create its own processes or lists that are separate from the people who are indigenous themselves and are already doing this work?

[Crystal Semaganis]

I think a systemic problem when dealing with colonial governments is that they always say that whatever is out there to define first nations, Métis, and Inuit identity must be led by first nations, Métis and Inuit, but that is not the case. We have colonial interference in all levels of government and across all sectors. Without the leadership from first nations, Métis and Inuit, there are going to be shortfalls and there's going to be exploitation continuing well into the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Atwin, please go ahead.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being with us today.

I have to say to our witnesses, what you say will be put into our report. There's a lot of preamble here from some of our committee members making certain assertions or assumptions, but it's what you're bringing to the table that we really appreciate for this important study.

I'd like to direct my question to the Ghost Warrior Society.

When were you approached to present at the committee today?

[Crystal Semaganis]

It was a couple of weeks ago.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Okay. Do you have the exact date?

[Crystal Semaganis]

That would have been after the Global News story of September 28, a few days in advance of September 30, the every child matters indigenous recognition day. It was the week following that. I cannot pinpoint the exact date, probably the Tuesday or Wednesday after that.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

I want to direct most of my questions to Mr. Carignan, specifically, because Plato originated in New Brunswick. That's my home province. I've been able to witness first-hand some of the incredible work that's done with Plato, specifically with youth.

Could you just start us off? What are the main barriers to economic development for first nations, Inuit and Métis communities? What are those unique barriers that are faced by communities?

[Denis Carignan]

I can speak mainly to some of the barriers that exist in the technology space, because it's quite a large question. When it comes to the technology space, there's not that much awareness of the opportunities that exist in terms of pursuing a livelihood in technology in many of our communities. If we go out to our communities, we see that a lot of the youth are very comfortable with technology. They are utilizing a lot of the skills that would be useful in an employment or a career context.

In terms of having the role models to follow, there aren't very many inside of technology. If you look at where a lot of our post-secondary students entering the post-secondary system go, they tend to go where there are people they already know. We have a lot of folks who are entering programs such as social work, addictions counselling, education and nursing, where there are already people from the community who are in those roles and are succeeding. They've provided a path to follow, and they are known commodities. But when it comes to technology services, quite often the technology that comes into our communities comes in as a product you buy or a product you download from the Internet. The path for how you can actually find that career isn't as clear.

What we have found over the course of the last eight years with our own program is that we work with local indigenous training organizations, community counsellors and post-secondary institutions, that kind of thing, to try to find individuals who are interested in careers in technology. Usually, the first thing we ask is, why do you want to do this? Folks will tell us, “I've always had a computer on my desk” or “I do my own digital media programming” or “I have a little business that I offer with services for individuals.” That initial desire is what we look for. We're also looking for skills that are important in our industry, such as the ability to think critically, the ability to follow logical thought patterns and the ability to communicate. We then take that and run them through a 20-week program. Inside of that program is basically everything you need to know to be a successful entrant to the career space as a technology tester in Canada.

The program includes technical skills training, such as things you need to know and be able to do as well. It also includes professional skills, such as how to interact as a consultant with a development team that may be situated in Lisbon, Portugal, as there may be language barriers and things like that. We do try to develop that, and then we try to remove barriers by offering a guaranteed employment offer for those who successfully complete the program. We then wrap our arms around folks using that apprenticeship model and provide ongoing coaching and mentorship support for the first couple of years.

To answer your question, what we see is that, with the people who have successfully joined our company and are working away, it becomes much easier to recruit from their communities and their families, because all of a sudden there's somebody there whom they know, and maybe they would like to do what their aunty or their uncle does. Next thing you know, we have multiple members from the same community, and sometimes we have multiple members of the same family, who take subsequent training courses.

For myself, if I look at it through a policy lens, the best way to get our youth into more STEM-related studies in university is to actually have people they know who are succeeding in those career spaces, and that will help generate a pathway for building that pipeline.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Absolutely.

I have such limited time. I have about a minute left in this round.

I was going to ask about that impact and what it means. You really eloquently spoke to some of that, how even in one family, for example, some of the impacts, the ripple effects, can be seen.

To that piece where they get that employment offer at the end, can you speak specifically to how important that is?

[Denis Carignan]

The idea was really to remove barriers. Most of us got our first job because we knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody, and that helped get us in the door. If there are no other members of the community who are in the technology space, it's harder to do, so the idea was to remove the initial barrier.

The second one is that, through our training program, we start to develop that initial network of professional people inside the space because, quite often, we're there to solve problems. You might run into a situation where you don't know the answer. The first thing you do is reach out to somebody you know and ask, “Have you seen this before? Can we use that?”

Originally, I guess we designed that offer of employment as part of a carrot to get people to the course, but really, we think it's a way of putting our money where our mouth is, in the sense that we say we're going to offer that employment. It is an offer people are free to accept once they complete the training. They're free to accept any other offer. If they get a better deal from a different company, they're free to accept that, but our guarantee to the trainees is that we will offer them that employment. Most accept it, probably because, inside of that training cohort, there's a community that's established, and that community becomes the first professional network that exists within the same enterprise.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

That's excellent. Thank you very much.