Government Operations Committee on Oct. 16th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

lf we're going to be forced to have this procedural discussion, I have an amendment to put forward on the motion. In some ways I'm reluctant to do that, because I would rather not indulge this at all. I would rather just insist on the point that we should hear from the witnesses and deal with this motion in the proper way at the proper time. Instead, we're into procedural back-and-forth on a matter that is not on the agenda and is not in order, and we have witnesses sitting here who have, in some cases, travelled a long distance and for a long time to testify.

I'm sorry that we're here, but, obviously, it's not our desire to be here. We want to be talking about the substance of the indigenous procurement issues.

The other thing is that if the government's serious about working on solutions to this issue, let's work on solutions. I think this committee could actually work constructively and put forward some very good solutions to make the indigenous procurement program work as it's intended, and actually shed some light on the problems and the need for improvement. Instead, sadly, the government is choosing a different direction.

Chair, I see some other hands. Maybe I'll hold off on moving my amendment for the moment. I don't know if other members want to.... I would like us to be able to adjourn this debate and move back to where we were.

I'll conclude my comments for now by moving a motion to adjourn the debate on this. If it comes back to me, I guess I'll move an amendment. Again, I would rather just get to hearing from the witnesses. At this point, we'll see where it goes.

I move that we adjourn the debate on this.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go back to the motion.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Well, amazement again....

During my first intervention, Mr. Chair, to the witnesses, I was spending some time highlighting how deeply disappointed I was with this particular tactic and the timing of this tactic to delay hearing—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry.

Go ahead on a point of order, Mrs. Atwin.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There's another tactic.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Mr. Chair, I don't think you provided us with a speaking list. My hand has been up for quite some time. I'm not sure where Mr. Brock was in that order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, I have you, Mr. Coteau and then Mr. Genuis.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

During my initial remarks, I heard from various members, particularly from the government, that they wanted to get back to hearing from the witnesses. I heard that from at least two members. I see that Crystal is nodding her head in the affirmative, and that's what we all believed.

Let's limit the discussion. Let's get back to a vote, and let's get to hearing the witnesses. How deeply disappointed I am to hear that that was never their agenda all along.

To my point, they will take every opportunity to shut down committees when it's deeply embarrassing to them. It's yet another scandal that's of their making. They've turned a blind eye to this practice for years. Despite various organizations and many indigenous leaders from across this country warning the government about the abuses, we finally got a committee to study this abuse, and what do they want to do? They want to talk about the structure by which we hold meetings during break weeks, because that's more of a priority to them, the actual process, than examining their own failed, corrupt practices.

We now learn that the NDP, who we thought, according to Jagmeet Singh, the leader of the NDP party, had torn up the supply and confidence agreement was just playing; it was a play on Canadians. The timing was to reinforce his efforts in the by-elections in Winnipeg and the by-elections in Quebec. Clearly, we see now at this committee and we've been seeing in the House that this NDP government really holds no core identity anymore as to what it truly believes in. Its members will criticize the government and then vote blindly in favour of it.

We now have an NDP member who I thought wanted to hear from witnesses, who wanted to engage in this particular debate and who wanted to get to recommendations so that we can improve economic reconciliation across this great nation with indigenous nations and indigenous neighbours, and it's all a ploy. It's a ploy to keep this government in power to shut down these important debates. How hypocritical to hear from this NDP member. The coalition is still alive.

Again, I offer my apologies. We will get to a point where we'll continue this conversation. I don't have any hope that it's going to happen today, but I look forward to seeing you again.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Brock.

We have Mrs. Atwin, Mr. Coteau and then Mr. Genuis.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be very brief.

We could just vote on this matter, and we could get back to the witnesses. This idea that there are procedural shenanigans afoot and they're on our side is quite shocking.

My goodness, we absolutely want to hear from the witnesses. In terms of the grandstanding, it's almost laughable for me to hear the Conservatives speak in this way. I'd love to give them the opportunity to continue to speak on their expertise and knowledge and how much they support indigenous communities, because I think that it's important and that it should be a non-partisan issue.

I want to know why they're so opposed to the chair showing us respect. This is a very simple motion that we could have been able to get through as a committee. We want to be prepared. We want to be here to put our best foot forward for this important study.

Again, Mr. Brock's idea is that we have these open days on these break weeks. These are constituency weeks. We have very specific meetings scheduled with organizations and entities. I'm supposed to be at an indigenous social work conference right now, which is really important to me as well. Your disappointment is well placed, I think, with yourself.

I would really like to close this matter, get to a vote and absolutely hear from these incredible witnesses who have come forward today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I agree 100% with my colleague.

I sit on two committees, and I've never seen this before, where a last-minute decision was made by the chair without consulting any of the members—outside of his colleagues—in making it.

The witnesses might take note that 90% of actual talking time is being occupied by the Conservatives. If they really want to get back to business, they just have to stop talking.

Let's deal with this motion. It's very simple. It's just saying to respect the committees and consult them when calling a meeting. It's that simple. If the Conservatives really want to get things moving....

Just stop talking. Let's vote.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, Chair, I'll respond to a couple of the absurd things that were just said.

Listen to the argument Mr. Coteau is making. He says that all they're asking for is respect and proper notice. Therefore, they moved a motion with zero notice that has nothing to do with the topic. It was ruled out of order by the chair. Then they overruled the chair, because they don't understand the rules. It's clear they don't understand the rules, because they're asking what motions are as they're being moved.

You have Liberals who are being given a strategy by PMO staffers. They don't understand the procedural mechanics at all. They don't understand the rules. Then they put forward a motion, with zero notice, that would effectively gut the ability of the opposition to convene meetings.

The vast majority of parliamentary committees have a government chair. The idea that government chairs haven't convened meetings in times, places and ways they choose to, without consultation, is complete nonsense. Somehow, when opposition—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Just stop talking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. Let me interrupt, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Coteau, if you have a point of order, please tell the chair. Please don't interrupt.

That goes for everyone in all four parties, please.

Continue, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have the floor now. Mr. Coteau is again demonstrating that he doesn't understand the rules. He doesn't understand how committees work.

The rules are—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Genuis. We have a point of order.

Go ahead on your point of order, Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

On privilege, I find it very disrespectful that the member accused me of not understanding parliamentary procedure. I would have the member know that I've been elected for 20 years. I've served a—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Coteau, what is your point of order?

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

The point of order is that the member is being very disrespectful in assuming.... He basically said that I don't know what I'm doing. It's very disrespectful, Mr. Chair, and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

—I think you should hold him accountable and make sure that, when he's addressing or making reference.... Well, I want him to apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Coteau, that's not a point of order, but your point is made. I understand your point. I'm not dismissing it—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.