Evidence of meeting #148 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard
Gina Wilson  Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Jessica Sultan  Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Keith Conn  Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone. I apologize for the delay.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 148 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, the mighty OGGO.

Before we start, we were going to resume our discussion regarding the CBSA deleted emails. We've received a lot of updated information. First, the emails were lost. Then they were “unlost”, and then they were sent.

I'll turn it over for a couple seconds to our clerk, and he can explain where the file is, so everyone can access it.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to apologize to committee members.

After doing some research over the last hour, we discovered that the documents were indeed sent to committee members on April 12, but that they were not filed under the heading of the motion for the production of committee documents. In fact, they were mistakenly filed under the documents that pertained to all contracts between the Government of Canada and GC Strategies, Dalian Enterprises or Coradix, whereas they actually pertained to the emails of official Minh Doan.

Again, I apologize. Later today, I will probably send out the emails that were originally distributed on April 12, but this time they will be filed under the correct heading and properly located on SharePoint.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, sir.

I'm going to suggest that we go right to our witnesses and allow time for Mrs. Kusie to revise the motion to reflect our committee's general concern over the deleted hard drive or the corrupted hard drive. I will set aside time next Tuesday to discuss that part of the issue.

We will say hello to our witnesses.

Thank you for joining us a few minutes early.

I understand, Ms. Wilson, that you have an opening statement for us.

Please go ahead. The floor is yours for five minutes.

Gina Wilson Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

Kwe. Hello. Bonjour, everyone.

It's a beautiful autumn day here today on the land of my ancestors and the land of my current relatives, the Algonquin Anishinabe, and I wish you all a good morning.

I am joined here today by my colleagues from Indigenous Services Canada to speak about the department’s support to indigenous peoples through access to federal procurement opportunities.

I would also like to speak to the work we are doing with partners to make improvements to the current Procurement Strategy for Indigenous Business. This includes work under way to ensure that first nations, Inuit and Métis peoples identify eligible indigenous businesses.

First I'll give some history and context of the rationale for creating the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses, which I will refer to as PSIB.

Indigenous people in Canada comprise approximately 5% of the overall population in Canada, yet, historically, businesses owned by first nations, Inuit and Métis entrepreneurs were consistently awarded a lower percentage of federal contracts.

In the early 1990s, the government saw an opportunity to increase indigenous people's access to procurement opportunities. In 1995, the eligibility criteria for the current PSIB, then under a slightly different name, was approved. Based on engagements with indigenous businesses, economic development organizations and national indigenous organizations, in 2021, Public Services and Procurement Canada, with support from Indigenous Services Canada and Treasury Board Secretariat, created more opportunities by implementing the mandatory minimum 5% indigenous procurement target. Updates were also made to PSIB to optimize opportunities for first nations, Inuit and Métis people in federal procurement.

Today, the PSIB and the mandatory 5% target continue to be two important ways that the Government of Canada supports indigenous businesses, indigenous community-owned businesses and indigenous entrepreneurs across the country.

I want to directly address the tangible economic benefits and supports for indigenous business development. Securing government contracts can lead to a steady revenue stream and provide financial stability to help indigenous businesses grow. Winning a government contract can help a business gain valuable experience and build credibility, which can open the door to other contracting opportunities. When a contract is awarded to a community-owned business such as a first nation-owned business, it has a direct positive socio-economic impact on the community. When a contract is awarded to a business owned by indigenous individuals, it has a direct positive impact on the indigenous people who own and operate that business, and it has an indirect positive socio-economic impact on the broader community.

We know that economic and social conditions are ever-evolving. In 2021, to meet these evolving needs, Indigenous Services Canada established a five-year plan to engage indigenous partners and co-develop a transformative indigenous procurement strategy. These reforms will improve existing procurement policies and programs and help ensure that benefits intended for indigenous people go to indigenous people.

This five-year process is currently under way. A key message delivered by partners in our co-development discussions is that first nations, Inuit and Métis are best positioned to verify and define “indigenous businesses”. My department is committed to working with these partners to develop a path forward to transferring the verification of indigenous businesses to indigenous partners.

To conclude, I'd like to emphasize that increasing economic opportunities and supporting economic development are essential to ISC's priorities in advancing self-determination and closing socio-economic gaps. Opportunities for indigenous businesses through Canada's procurement operations are important contributors to this economic agenda. It's about fostering long-term partnerships that lead to self-sufficiency and growth. Involving first nation, Inuit and Métis businesses in supply chains helps to ensure that wealth generated from these activities stays in communities and with indigenous entrepreneurs. This supports local development, job creation and cultural preservation.

I welcome your questions.

Meegwetch.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks very much, Ms. Wilson.

We'll start with Mrs. Kusie, please.

Go ahead.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair, and thank you very much to our witnesses for being here today. Meegwetch.

I'm Stephanie Kusie, member of Parliament for Calgary Midnapore. Coming from Calgary, I come from the land of Treaty 7 and Métis Region 3, so thank you very much for being here with us today.

My first question, Madam Wilson, is this: Why isn't the Minister of Indigenous Services here today? The committee unanimously agreed to invite her to come. Why isn't she here today?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

Gina Wilson

I didn't have an opportunity to have that discussion with her, so I'm not quite aware. You'd have to ask her.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay. Thank you.

The AFN told this committee that they believe most of the contracts for the government's indigenous procurement program have gone to shell companies. Do you believe they are correct?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

Gina Wilson

I heard the testimony that was provided by the AFN regional chief, Joanna Bernard, I believe. I have a great deal of respect for her. We've actually reached out to the AFN to try to corroborate some of the evidence and testimony they provided. We haven't received a full response, either to the notion of shell companies and their numbers there, or to the 1%, so we'll continue to work with them, and hopefully they'll have more information for us.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay, so from your response I'm sensing that you feel that perhaps their response, the information they provided this committee, requires further information from your department. Would that be the best summary of your response, would you say?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

Gina Wilson

I would say that we do not have any evidence, at least from our perspective, as to the numbers that were provided, no evidence of the data points that were provided.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay, thank you very much.

Do you conduct audits regarding compliance with indigenous procurement rules?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

Gina Wilson

We do indeed provide audits, and I might ask Jessica to speak to our pre-audit, post-audit, and random-audit processes.

Jessica Sultan Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Thank you very much.

The procurement strategy for indigenous business requires three specific types of audit: a pre-award audit, which is mandatory for contracts that are over $2 million and voluntary otherwise; discretionary audits, which can be requested by either Indigenous Services Canada or the client or the contracting authority; and also post-award audits, which are done at the request of the client or Indigenous Services Canada.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Then how many audits has the department conducted to date, please?

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Jessica Sultan

This year I can confirm that since December 2023 we have completed 19 pre-award audits, and we have 12 post-award audits currently under way.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Could you please share with the committee on which companies you conducted the audits?

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Jessica Sultan

Are you asking about the pre-award audits?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Which companies specifically would be listed under the pre-award audits?

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Jessica Sultan

Can you give me a moment, please?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Certainly.

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Jessica Sultan

Unfortunately, I don't have the list of which companies were done, but we could provide that if desired.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

If you could please provide that to the committee, that would be much appreciated.

I wanted to go now to the ArriveCAN issue, the abuse of joint ventures and the relationship to indigenous contracting. As I'm sure you're aware, Dalian is a two-person company that qualified as indigenous. It formed a partnership with Coradix, and that partnership was able to obtain contracts under the indigenous procurement set-aside, even though Coradix has a substantial number of employees and Dalian effectively has just the two partners.

Dalian struggled to answer simple questions about the work they actually completed, and it would seem that Dalian is there to allow the non-indigenous company, Coradix, to obtain opportunities meant specifically for indigenous businesses, which, as I understand, is the objective of the program.

In your opinion, do you see what happened in the case of ArriveCAN as being an abuse of the program?

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

Gina Wilson

I don't have a personal opinion on that actual question. I'm following it, like everyone else, in terms of the audit and the Auditor General.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Would this potentially be one of the current audits of the department?