Government Operations Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Jody Anderson]

I'll speak to the matter of surety and bonding.

In this case, as a status Indian, if I'm living on reserve, I don't have the ability..., which forces me to create a joint venture with somebody else who can, in fact, access surety and bonding. This perpetuates—not always, but sometimes—the misuse and the misrepresentation of funds that are set asides for indigenous people.

If we go back to looking at preventative measures for fraud, we see that these are systemic issues that currently exist. We cannot have monies going to indigenous businesses that are unverified. If you think about it in terms of a credit rating, I will never have an opportunity to grow, scale and have my business known because I'm constantly having to create a joint venture, simply for the fact of ease, ability and affordability of capital and capacity.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

There's been a lot of talk today and previously about the abuse of joint ventures.

I wonder if, in terms of thinking about the targets and being honest with ourselves, we should evaluate those joint ventures a little bit differently. If we're trying to get to a specific target, we should acknowledge that, if there's a joint venture where some of the benefit may be going to an indigenous company, a lot of the benefit isn't. Counting that fully as being towards the 5% seems a little misleading because if most of that 5% is made up of joint ventures, then in reality, we're actually much further behind.

I'd be curious about your comments on that.

[Jody Anderson]

To be clear, not all joint ventures are done illegitimately—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I agree with that.

[Jody Anderson]

—or are done in bad faith. However, this creates a potential loophole for perpetuating the misuse and misrepresentation of funds that are set aside and, in fact, earmarked for indigenous businesses.

Preventative measures are definitely something that we need to look at. The policy to have the ability to get on the indigenous business directory is something that we hope to be consulted on so that we, as indigenous people, can have a say in terms of how this impacts our folks.

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

I would add that, in our indigenous business definition that we've published, we do have how we assess joint ventures—whether they're legitimate or not. We do have a process for that in our definition.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mrs. Atwin, please.

Go ahead.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Is my sound coming through okay? I thought I would check before I begin. There was some feedback last time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give us two seconds.

Can you keep speaking, please?

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Yes.

I have some noisy kiddos who just came home and are very excited for Halloween, so you might hear them in the background as well, but hopefully that's not the interference that we have going on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Are your children saying that they're saving candy for the chair?

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I could arrange for that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think that's what I'm seeing is going to be in the blues.

You're good to go ahead.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

Perhaps I'll just begin with you, Mr. Calla. I know that you wanted to jump in on the previous question. Do you want to elaborate on anything that has been said so far?

[Harold Calla]

Thank you.

As an indigenous person, I'm frustrated by our continual approach to work around the Indian Act. I think it's high time that we start looking at how we get rid of the Indian Act. We have a whole series of opportunities that first nations have taken advantage of, from self-government—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Calla, I apologize for interrupting.

Can you lower your mic a tiny bit?

[Harold Calla]

How's that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You can keep going, sir.

[Harold Calla]

What I'm saying is that we need to focus on not working around section 89, ultimately—maybe in the short term. We have to find a longer-term solution that moves us outside of the Indian Act, particularly when it comes to economic development, finance and capital. I think we lose sight of that.

I've been involved in a lot of years of moving around the Indian Act and trying to avoid it. Ultimately, it doesn't result in equality between ourselves and non-indigenous Canadians, and I think we need to eliminate section 89, as Ernie and others have said. Sometimes there are optional approaches that need to be considered to achieve that.

Thank you.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank you, as well. You've given your life's work to ensuring that, as you said, indigenous communities are back in economic development.

How are we doing? As you said, you've seen a lot over the years. I know that you worked a lot through the First Nations Fiscal Management Act. Could you speak to that experience and where we've come?

[Harold Calla]

I think we've come a long way, but in coming a long way, we've started to identify the further impediments that we face. Those have been clearly identified here today. I think where we are is understanding that the government has a role to play, and it's starting to play that role.

I can tell you that we started talking about a federal loan guarantee in 2012, under the former government. Why does it take 15 years to get to the point that you're starting to acknowledge these kinds of things and the barriers exist and they need to change? The government has a role to play, but in many cases, it's getting out of the way, looking at how you make legislative changes and acting at the speed of business. You can't have these conversations ongoing and ongoing that require policy analysis and development in perpetuity. Sometimes, you just have to make a decision and move forward and understand that not everything's going to be perfect all of the time.

If you look at the outcomes, just look at what the finance authority and the tax commission have been able to achieve. Look at the First Nations Fiscal Management Act. We now have over 350 of the Indian Act bands involved in the FMA. We're producing capacity development in first nations communities that enhance the ability of those first nations to support their membership.

First nations solutions work. The FMA is the most successful piece of legislation we have. When we start talking about procurement organizations and other vehicles, look at the success of those institutions that we've created and understand that we will be able to....

Part of it is bringing those things into being. We passed legislation 16 months ago to create an infrastructure institute. It's still not up and running. That's not acceptable. You have an infrastructure gap. The economic impact to the regional and Canadian economies by bridging that gap will be immense.

The government has to act. It has to act more quickly. It has to respect that first nations solutions have proven themselves to be valid, and it needs to get out of the way.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Calla.

That's it for me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mrs. Vignola, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to make a comment. I don't have much time, but I'll try to do it as quickly as possible. Then you can give me your impressions, Ms. Anderson and Mr. Metatawabin, on the subjects I've touched on in my commentary.

Personally, and this only involves me, I find it absurd that one nation, in this case Canada, tells other nations, namely first nations, Métis and Inuit, which people are members and which are not.

I find it absurd that federal laws prohibit other nations, namely yours, from ensuring their own economic development and autonomy on their territory.

I find it absurd that solutions that come from your nations, which suffer the negative consequences of Canadian laws and decisions, are almost systematically rejected or ignored.

I also find it absurd that nations are treated like minor children by another nation that believes itself to be all-powerful and that has been playing the paternalism and infantilization card since well before 1867. I'd go so far as to say it goes back to 1760.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on these matters and how we can really work to meet your needs, empower you and ensure your autonomy.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I just want to highlight that we have a plan for you. It's called the national indigenous economic strategy. There are 22 organizations that worked on this, mostly during COVID. We got together and we worked on this. There are 107 calls to prosperity for Canada to look at. It covers people, land, infrastructure and revenue. These are all important elements of future prosperity for Canada. They're equally important for indigenous prosperity, and we have a plan that calls for prosperity that Canada can look at to begin planning with us. We can sit down and talk about it.

Harold is talking about institutional building. We're looking for gaps in our community where we can lead and develop things that our community needs for us. It's UNDRIP. It's indigenous for indigenous.

Thank you.