Government Operations Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I haven't seen that. I'd like to understand it clearly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It was read out, but I'll ask the clerk if he can send it to your P9.

Continue, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The motion has been moved, and it has been distributed. However, if members would like it read again, then the motion is as follows:

That the committee call on Randy Boissonnault, Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Official Languages, to immediately resign from cabinet and that this call be reported to the House.

Conservatives and, I believe, all other opposition parties are calling on the Prime Minister to remove Randy Boissonnault from cabinet. This is the minister who pretended to be indigenous and who told the House of Commons that he had a Cree great-grandmother, which he now admits is false. He has made all sorts of contradictory claims about his identity, and the Liberal Party said that he was indigenous at various times in the past.

This is a minister who engaged in indigenous identity fraud, and he did it perhaps for a variety of reasons, but one of which enabled the company he owned to claim that it was indigenous while bidding for contracts from the government that he is also a part of. He's a minister. He owns a company as well, and that company was bidding for contracts from the Liberal government. He was claiming to be indigenous, and the company was claiming to be indigenous-owned, but neither of those things were true. This was designed to advance the commercial interests of his company and to make himself wealthier.

That is the definition of corruption. It's identity fraud. It's corruption. It's lying about his identity in order to steal resources that should be going to real indigenous entrepreneurs and to real indigenous communities. If that's not the type of serious offence that leads to someone being removed from cabinet, then I don't know what is.

Mr. Chair, we have five Liberal members sitting across the way who tried to prevent me from moving this motion. None of them are in cabinet. I'm sure all of them would like to be in cabinet, yet Randy Boissonnault remains around that cabinet table despite his outrageous, offensive conduct.

The questions today are these: Are we going to be able to pass this motion? Are we going to see the Liberals who were passed over in favour of Randy Boissonnault filibuster to defend this corrupt pretender, or are we going to see this committee be able to get to a vote on this motion?

I hope we're able to get to a vote on this motion so that we can send a clear message that indigenous identity fraud is serious. It's wrong, and it's been done in this case in order to advance the commercial private interests of a minister of the Crown. This is deplorable stuff. The minister must be fired. I hope we will be able to get to a vote quickly so that this minister will be fired and a clear message will be sent to the House on this. Once we get to a vote, all committee members will no doubt be able to proceed with other things, so let's get this done.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Next I have Ms. Blaney and then Mr. Sousa.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I just want to ask, first of all, if the clerk could send us a bit of a calendar. I know that's a side note, but I heard a lot of things that we're going to do. It would be great to have a calendar.

In response to this, I know that our MP, Blake Desjarlais, has very clearly asked for the resignation of this minister. I will say that I find it very sad and very frustrating. I am a white woman. When I was four, I was adopted by an indigenous family. I am very clearly white, but I belong to a family that is indigenous. I have to walk that line very carefully, and I do it very carefully, even when it hurts my family, because they feel that I belong to them.

When somebody is careless—and I'm not going to attribute ill intent—and I'm not going to say that he was a bad person who is outright lying. I don't know the story of his family. However, when you do these things, you must do it very carefully to respect a people who have been marginalized since the very beginning of contact. To be careless about it is very upsetting to me because it doesn't acknowledge the historical wrongs that have been done and the long-term implications of those actions. When somebody isn't very clear on who they belong to and where they come from, and they make comments, it is harmful.

I agree with this motion. I don't necessarily agree with some of the drama that I'm seeing around it, but it makes me very frustrated to see a human being tell those stories of history like they belong to him without clarifying that they belong to him. Who gets to share a story is very important, and how you do it is very important.

We heard today testimony from the minister about trying to get it right, and it's never going to be right as long as it's held within a colonial system. We need to make sure that the level of accountability is incredibly high and that we don't mistake a colonial history and people losing connection to their traditions and their families because of that colonial history.... Those are complex stories, but when they are told, they had better be told correctly.

I'm very concerned and I don't understand why we have a minister who not only isn't being removed but doesn't gracefully and with dignity withdraw himself. Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but I have to say, when you're going to speak, you had better speak honestly and you had better make sure that what you're saying is correct.

It is wrong, so I will be supporting this motion and I certainly hope that we can get this work done. I really don't know why he hasn't stepped down.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

I have Mr. Sousa and then Mrs. Block.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, I believe Mr. Boissonnault, the minister, is appearing before this committee. He's agreed to do so.

I am of the understanding that there is lineage within his family with indigenous members, and he's apologized for not making that clearer.

Regardless of all of that, it's also been very clear and it's been stated multiple times that the company in which he was a partner some time ago never received...and has never been put on the indigenous list. That doesn't exist. He never received contracts with regard to being an indigenous company. He's not on the list, he hasn't received contracts and he's made it clear that he's not involved in the day-to-day operations of this organization.

The purpose of this motion is to call into question the work of cabinet and of the Prime Minister's Office in determining, as we go forward.... It's not really relevant to this committee in terms of goings-on with respect to what the decisions of the cabinet should be.

I know they're so eager to be in power. They're already putting curtains up, trying to move furniture, trying to determine how to renovate the various residences and what they're talking about, but my goodness, we have ongoing...in regard to the workings of trying to enhance the contracts and the economic success of the members of the indigenous community. That's the whole point of going forward and of some of the practices that we have in place. We have systems to curb those who may try to be fraudulent in those activities with regard to any matter of procurement.

Mr. Chair, this motion is certainly all about politics. It's a great opportunity for them to get a few more social hits on YouTube. It's about their opportunity to get out there to provide even greater misinformation and manipulation of issues, just as they're trying to do with the residence in New York.

We have some serious...in regard to trying to help members of the indigenous community. We have very serious abilities to improve their lot in life. They have done an extraordinary job of getting involved in procurement and contracts with government. In fact, I'm very pleased by some of the meetings and engagements that I've had with some of their financing groups and so forth. That allows them to be at the forefront of major engagements in Canadian economic activity.

The members opposite, when they were there in power, so to speak, were certainly trying to engage and be powerful in their accusations, in their slogans and in claiming, falsely, the notions of people's integrity and engaging with, frankly, their own manipulation.

Frankly, it's somewhat disgusting to see the degradation they have, putting people through the wringer, from the bureaucracy onwards. Unlike the Conservatives of the time who were charged and who were found guilty...that was serious. What we're doing right now is trying to ensure that the indigenous community is protected and that those actions and activities have been taken.

When they were there, Mr. Chair, they destroyed that relationship. There was no real truth and reconciliation. There was no proper engagement with members of the indigenous community. In fact, it was the opposite. Now they're standing here, trying to be all holier than thou, when they're in fact the ones who were to blame from the get-go.

We're doing what's necessary to provide for true partnership and for true engagement. They're taking and abusing the system for their own gain and not for the gain of indigenous communities and certainly not for the gain of other Canadians who are working hard to establish that relationship.

I will be voting against this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

I have Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I appreciate our colleague's intervention at the very beginning. I believe she's captured very well the essence of the issue that we are trying to address.

It is welcome news to hear that Minister Boissonnault will be attending committee. That's a bit of a surprise to us, but it's a very welcome surprise. I do want to say that—

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Just to clarify, I believe he's appearing before the ethics committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You stated it was here though.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Yes, I was wrong.

[A voice]

It was welcome.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Yes, absolutely. That's why it was a very welcome announcement here at committee.

I want to be clear, because we heard from the minister, over and over again, that Minister Boissonnault's company, Global Health Imports, was not on the IBD. That's not the point. The point that his company was not on the list is not the main issue here.

The main issue is that we have a parliamentarian, a cabinet minister, who has misled his caucus, has misled the cabinet, has misled parliamentarians and has misled Canadians in an attempt to defraud the government out of money that was intended to go to an indigenous-owned company. It was intended for indigenous-owned companies. It's a small set-aside.

We were very genuine, I believe all of us around this table, when we agreed to undertake this study on indigenous procurement and to get to the bottom of what was happening. We've heard from many witnesses, many indigenous organizations and witnesses, who have identified for us that there is indeed fraudulent activity taking place within this program.

I'm going to state it very clearly. The Liberal members around this table and Liberal members in the Liberal caucus cannot claim that this is a serious issue and that it must be looked into and then not deal with their own colleague who has admitted to misleading Canadians, who has admitted to misleading Parliament and who, by the Minister of Indigenous Services' own admission and testimony, is involved in fraudulent activity by the very nature of admitting that he misled Canadians by telling them that he was indigenous when he was not.

That is the issue that is before us. It is our duty to hold a member of Parliament, to hold a member of cabinet, to account when they lie about who they are, specifically to defraud Canadians out of their hard-earned taxpayer money and to defraud a program that was intended for somebody other than themselves.

I would ask that every member around this table support this motion so that we can demonstrate to Canadians that we are willing to take this situation seriously and that we do not support what this individual has done and the misrepresentation of his office and the authority he has. I would call upon all members to support this motion and call for the resignation of Randy Boissonnault immediately.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have no one else on the speaking list....

Colleagues, I'm going to remind everyone one last time, as I stated at the last meeting, to avoid this issue. I will announce the next two speakers. It's going to be up to you folks to maintain the speakers list if you wish to. If not, I'm going to go straight to a vote in the future.

I warned about this last week—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me finish, sir.

Colleagues, could you keep an eye on that, please, so that we can avoid that kind of conflict here?

Go ahead, Mr. Gerretsen, and then I have Mr. Bains on the speaking list.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Just as a point of order, with all due respect, a debate is about listening and speaking, so I might not know that I want to speak until I've heard the last words that have been spoken.

I respect that ruling, but I would encourage you to at least keep the door open to the possibility that we might want to engage in debate as to the last words we heard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is why I recognized Mr. Bains and brought it up. It is not up to me to maintain the debate, Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Bains, go ahead, and then I have Mrs. Vignola.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I want to add a little bit to this debate on this motion.

I see members across the way who also, like me, are serving on the ethics committee, where Minister Boissonnault is scheduled to appear. Maybe this could be one of those times that we can just have a friendly understanding. Many of the members here are also serving on that committee. They have the opportunity to ask these very same questions. He's already scheduled to appear. Instead of tying up the important work that we're doing here and duplicating that work, it may be an opportunity for us to agree that members who may be here quite often would come and sit on the ethics committee and have the opportunity to ask their questions there as well.

We do have an upcoming meeting where the minister is scheduled to appear. He's appeared there multiple times already. He's answered several questions on the magnitude of all of the investigations that are being directed his way. I think this could be a good opportunity to have an understanding and to have the questions that Mr. Genuis is bringing forward asked there in that committee. The minister is already scheduled to appear there, so I think if we can all agree, that could be a good solution to moving forward from here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you for giving me a few minutes, Mr. Chair.

As I said at the outset, I have women friends who for much of their life were not recognized as indigenous because their mother was indigenous but not their father. That mistake was rectified no more than 15 years ago. They are older than me and I am 47. So they were raised in their mother's culture for many years but never had the right, under Canadian law, which claims to know everything, to seek legal recognition of their status and their true identity. So I am especially sensitive to this issue.

I did not hear the minister say that he is indigenous or is not. I hear what people are saying. On the one hand, people say he is indigenous, but from a grandmother who doesn't exist, while on the other people say that is not exactly what he said. So I reserve my right, as usual, to do my own analysis and not fall into partisanship.

His resignation has also been raised in the House of Commons since there is a question of privilege—

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