Evidence of meeting #155 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Mills  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Catherine Poulin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
David Naus  Director General, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 155 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, properly known, at least in this room, as the mighty OGGO.

Before we start, as always, everyone, please keep your headphones away from your microphone so that we can protect the hearing of our very valued interpreters.

We'll head to our witnesses. We'll do one hour with the witnesses, and then we're going to go in camera and hopefully finish the Canada Post report.

Mr. Mills, welcome back to OGGO. I understand that you have an opening statement for us. Please go ahead.

Michael Mills Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting representatives of Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, and its office of supplier integrity and compliance to discuss this important study on indigenous procurement.

With me today are Catherine Poulin, assistant deputy minister of the departmental oversight branch; and David Naus, director general responsible for integrity and forensic accounting services, also in the departmental oversight branch.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabeg people. The Algonquin peoples have lived on this land since time immemorial. We are grateful to have the opportunity to be present in this territory.

The Government of Canada's procurement strategy for indigenous business has been an important indigenous business development tool for many years. It focuses on encouraging the participation of indigenous businesses in federal procurement through mandatory, voluntary and conditional set-asides.

More recently, the Government of Canada has established the target of 5% of the total value of federal contracts awarded to indigenous businesses to direct its purchasing power in support of indigenous businesses. PSPC is working with Indigenous Services Canada, as well as with the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat to support departments and agencies to meet the minimum target of 5%.

As a department, PSPC is also working to ensure that 5% of our purchases are directed towards indigenous businesses. Last year, we did not meet this target. In part, that was because a large part of our contracts are awarded for large-value, complex endeavours, where it is simply not possible to find indigenous prime contractors.

Instead, our large contracts are making a difference by ensuring that subcontracting and employment opportunities benefit indigenous businesses and individuals, which aren't always reflected in the numbers. The inclusion of the participation plans and contracts is driving these economic benefits through subcontracting.

We continue to look at ways to increase indigenous prime contracts. We have introduced indigenous-by-default approaches where indigenous participation must be considered in all procurements. As well, PSPC has introduced limited bidding in certain cases to allow for a procurement to be accessible solely by indigenous businesses.

Mr. Chair, we share this committee’s concern regarding the potential deliberate misrepresentation of indigeneity on the part of government suppliers. Indigenous Services Canada is the lead department for the Government of Canada’s procurement strategy for indigenous businesses. ISC is also responsible for defining the criteria for eligible indigenous businesses, administering the verification processes of a business’s ability to meet the eligibility requirements, and maintaining the government’s indigenous business directory.

As with other departments, PSPC relies on the indigenous business directory to provide assurance that we are contracting with verified indigenous businesses. I will note that Indigenous Services Canada is currently working with their partners to develop a path forward for transferring the verification process to indigenous groups.

Mr. Chair, the government has taken two important steps to safeguard the integrity of the federal procurement system and to take action to protect Canada from suppliers of concern. First, it has created the Office of Supplier Integrity and Compliance, or OSIC, to enhance PSPC’s capacity to identify and respond to instances of supplier misconduct and wrongdoing.

Second, it has introduced the new ineligibility and suspension policy to provide OSIC with a range of actions, including suspension and debarment, on a much broader scope of misconduct. To be clear, these changes enable the registrar of ineligibility and suspension to suspend and debar suppliers based on an assessment that shows they have violated the integrity of the procurement process, even in situations where there are no criminal charges or convictions.

We encourage departments and agencies to come forward with their concerns about potential wrongdoing and misconduct. Even if departments do not report issues, OSIC can self-initiate assessments if they become aware of issues.

With regard to indigenous procurement, I can tell you that PSPC is actively engaging Indigenous Services Canada to ensure that deliberate misrepresentation or false claims of indigeneity are referred to OSIC for consideration. Since its inception earlier this year, OSIC has already taken action against a number of bad actors and continues to step up the government's efforts to root out suppliers of concern.

In closing, Mr. Chair, the Government of Canada buys some $37 billion worth of goods and services each year. Directing 5% of these purchases to indigenous businesses can have a significant positive impact on indigenous business development. PSPC will continue to use the government's buying power to help address the inequities that exist between indigenous and non-indigenous businesses. At the same time, we are equally committed to safeguarding the integrity of Canada's federal procurement system.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Genuis, we'll start with you for six minutes, please.

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're just seeing some news that Randy Boissonnault's company, GHI, has had its eligibility for government contracts suspended. Could you clarify whether that's correct and whether GHI, Randy Boissonnault's company, is currently eligible for contracts?

Catherine Poulin Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you for the question.

I can confirm, as the registrar of ineligibility and suspension, that I provisionally suspended GHI from doing business with the Government of Canada. The suspension came into effect November 22, 2024, and it will be in place for 90 days but can be extended if necessary.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you.

Could you clarify the specific reasons for taking that step?

11:05 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Catherine Poulin

Before answering that, it's important to mention that we're constantly looking at various types of information while assessing the risk that a supplier may pose to the federal government. We have gone through multiple sources of information, including lawsuits, both civil and criminal. The information that has been brought to our attention recently, concerning an Edmonton Police Service investigation, put us at the right level of the threshold to take action under the policy.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you.

The Conservative Party obviously doesn't think GHI should be getting government contracts. However, from your answer, it sounds like indigenous identity fraud was not a contributing factor in your decision to suspend it. Could you clarify whether a clear case of indigenous identity fraud—false claims about being an indigenous-owned company—was a contributing factor in your decision to suspend it?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Michael Mills

I can confirm that GHI has never been on the indigenous business directory. It has not received or participated in set-asides for indigenous processes, so it was not a factor from a contracting perspective.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

It made false claims in the process of making bids. That's what's been reported. You're saying that it wasn't on the indigenous business list, but then it nonetheless claimed to be an indigenous business because it thought that would provide it some advantage when making those bids. That's still identity fraud. Regardless of whether it was successful in getting that particular contract or whether it was on that list, it still clearly misrepresented itself.

Do you think GHI committed indigenous identity fraud, regardless of the outcome, and was that a factor in the decision to suspend it?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Catherine Poulin

It's important to mention that, as the registrar of ineligibility and suspension, I am not a law enforcement agency and I do not have to confirm whatever behaviour is criminal or not. However, to answer your question, the representation has been part of the cases we have looked at and will form one of the factors that will be looked at by the determination team while finalizing the assessment of GHI.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

It sounds like you're saying yes, and as part of your calculation when deciding on the provisional suspension and the ongoing review you're undertaking, one of the factors was the reports about misrepresentation of indigenous identity. You're clarifying that you're not necessarily saying that it was criminal, but you're saying that it was misrepresentation.

It sounds like you're saying yes. Are you saying yes?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Catherine Poulin

I'm saying that it's part of the assessment. However, the important point you made at the end, that I'm not commenting on the criminal aspect of it, is a very important point to take into consideration.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay, I understand.

GHI, a company that is owned by a current Liberal MP, a former cabinet minister, has now been suspended from eligibility for government contracts, provisionally. Of course, we would advocate a stronger position of its not being eligible for government contracts, period. I also note that the initial suspension did follow our calling for that. Work continues to be done to get to the bottom of what happened with Randy Boissonnault and this company, and we'll certainly continue to follow that work and do that work.

For our information, I would like to request that you provide this committee with all of the bids that have been made by GHI so that we can see what claims were made in those bids. Is that something you're able to provide us with?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Catherine Poulin

Thank you so much.

I can partially answer your question, and then we will follow up with documents. The integrity verification service is aware of two bids: one that came in 2020 and the other that came in 2023. We are in the process of gathering a paper copy of those bids, and when we have gathered them, it will be our pleasure to transmit that information to the committee.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you. We'll look forward to that information as soon as it's available.

On indigenous identity fraud in general, you said in the opening that some action has been taken against bad actors. Could you name the bad actors and identify the action that's been taken against them bad actors as a result specifically of indigenous identity fraud? If we run out of time, I'd like that list in writing.

11:10 a.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Michael Mills

Mr. Chair, I apologize if I misconstrued or conflated taking action with bad actors under the OSIC, as opposed to implying that we're taking action specifically against an indigenous business. We have not taken action to my knowledge.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

We're not really talking about an indigenous business; we're talking about those who pretend to be indigenous businesses.

Could you clarify, has any action ever been taken against a business in response to indigenous identity fraud as part of the procurement process?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Catherine Poulin

Thank you for the question—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

You can provide a short answer, please.

11:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Catherine Poulin

OSIC has no role or responsibility in determining whether a supplier belongs to IBD or not, or whether that supplier made a false representation.

In order to take some action, we absolutely need to have a referral from a lead operation agency. In that case, it will be ISC.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Right, but has any action been taken against any company? If they provide you with a referral and say there's a problem, then you follow up on that, to my understanding.

Are there any cases in which you've been able to identify that indigenous identity fraud happened, and there's been a consequence?

11:15 a.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Michael Mills

Sorry, we have not been referred any cases from Indigenous Services Canada of misrepresentation.

That said, as I said in my opening statement, we have reached out to Indigenous Services Canada and asked them that, if they are aware of anything, to please refer them, and we would be happy to look at them.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

That's concerning and good to know, so thank you for the information.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks very much.

Mr. Sousa, please go ahead, sir.