Evidence of meeting #157 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was billion.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anita Anand  President of the Treasury Board
Bill Matthews  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Antoine Brunelle-Côté  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yves Giroux  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Mark Creighton  Senior Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Jill Giswold  Senior Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 157 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, known to everyone—except for Mr. Matthews, apparently—as the mighty OGGO.

Colleagues, I have just a couple of quick things.

Please give me a break today. My voice is faltering. Cheers all around, I know.

We have the minister for only one hour at the most, and I'm going to keep everyone to the exact five minutes, six minutes and two and a half minutes. Please watch your clocks.

Minister, welcome back. The floor is yours for five minutes, please.

Anita Anand President of the Treasury Board

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify before you.

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Today I am accompanied by officials from my department. We're here to give you an overview of supplementary estimates (B) 2024‑25.

Canadians rely on us as their elected representatives to ensure that public funds are effectively and efficiently used to deliver important programs, services and supports.

Supplementary estimates (B) present information on the government's additional spending requirements in various priority areas.

Whether it's building more housing, the Canadian Dental Care Plan, Canada's National School Food Program or programs that contribute to the future of young people, the government will always invest in the priorities that matter most to Canadians.

Specifically, Mr. Chair, the supplementary (B)s seek parliamentary approval of $21.6 billion in proposed spending across 79 federal organizations.

This includes $742 million for the CMHC, including funding for the apartment construction loan program, the affordable housing fund and the housing accelerator fund.

These programs, Mr. Chair, help address housing shortages, develop infrastructure and streamline building processes.

Funding is also proposed for the implementation of the first-ever national school food program, which will provide meals for an additional 400,000 children each year, in addition to the meals served through existing school food programs.

The government continues to support the next generation of our workforce, and these supplementary estimates propose $12 million for young entrepreneurs and $15 million to allow Canadian students and teachers to access coding and digital skills training opportunities through our CanCode program.

In addition, the proposed spending includes funding for the Canadian dental care plan, which has already been accessed by 2.7 million Canadians across the country, which Conservatives want to cut.

These supplementary estimates bring a decrease of $14.9 billion, or 6.2%, from the previous year's estimates at the same point.

In addition, the supplementary estimates include $3.2 billion in additional statutory budgetary expenditures. Those are approved through legislation other than appropriation acts.

The proposed spending is primarily for the Canada carbon rebate, which will provide $2.6 billion for small businesses and an additional $307 million for individuals.

Non-budgetary expenditures reflect planned financial assistance to Ukraine and investment in the World Bank's capacity to help developing countries, and I would really hope that my Conservative colleagues would support these measures as well.

Mr. Chair, as you can see, the supplementary estimates target priorities that will deliver results for Canadians and those in need abroad.

As noted, proposed spending is spread across our government.

Among the largest proposed investments by department are $4.5 billion to the Department of Indigenous Services for supports, including under Jordan's principle; $3.3 billion to the Department of National Defence to support military procurement; and $1.7 billion to the Treasury Board of Canada for recently signed public service collective agreements and public service benefits.

Lastly, Mr. Chair, I urge all parliamentarians to support these measures. I urge Conservatives in particular to stop playing partisan games so that MPs can debate important legislation.

The officials accompanying me and I are now ready to answer members' questions for an hour.

Thank you very much.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mrs. Kusie for six minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Minister, for returning to this committee.

Your opening is just beyond rich. I'm going to read some facts to you about your government, Minister, that I'm sure you're very well aware of. CEBA reported yesterday that $3.5 billion in funds were awarded to those who should not have received them. We've had the arrive scam scandal, and a $9-million NYC condo. This is the most expensive government in the history of Canada. You're coming here and accusing us of playing political games at a time when your government has been completely irresponsible.

As I've said repeatedly in this committee, you are the one, Minister, who holds the purse strings. I'm actually shocked that the Prime Minister gave you another job, considering the responsibility you hold as President of the Treasury Board. Your efforts should be entirely focused here, as President of the Treasury Board, on reducing the deficit. I will also remind you that from April to September of this year, the deficit was already $8.2 billion higher than it was the year before. The PBO, who we have coming in the following hour, said that you will miss the deficit target by $6.8 billion.

This is my first question for you: Is this number of $6.8 billion even accurate? Tell us today, Minister: How bad is the number? Tell Canadians.

11:05 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

What I will tell Canadians is that unlike the Conservatives, who vote against supports for Canadians at every step.... Whether it be the national school food program, the dental care program, the Canadian Armed Forces, affordable housing or Jordan's principle, the Conservatives vote against Canadians every single time. I find it strange that you can say you actually do support Canadians and you do care about Canadians when you vote against Canadians at every turn.

The question really is very concerning—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

So, like the Prime Minister, Minister, it's clear that you don't know the number.

11:05 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

—for all members of the House.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

The Prime Minister showed Pierre Poilievre that he didn't know the number last week. Like the Prime Minister, Minister, you don't know the number.

11:05 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

That's false. I know the number.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Tell me the number.

11:05 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

I know the numbers, and we are definitely engaged—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

What's the deficit going to be this year? Tell the number to Canadians, please.

11:05 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

We are definitely engaged with all departments in the government, including the Department of Finance, which holds the purse strings in terms of our budgetary commitments. We will be ensuring that the public accounts are delivered by the end of the year, where all of the numbers will be contained.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Minister, you come in here and you talk about all these programs and how you're taking care of Canadians. You can't even take care of the public service. It's evident now. This was quoted in Policy Options this week: “If you lay out the puzzle pieces as we head into the fiscal update, it becomes clear that there is no path forward for this government...that doesn’t go through the public service”.

You couldn't even keep your promise to them to take care of them or to hold their jobs. Why should Canadians believe you can take responsibility for them when you can't even take responsibility for the public service?

11:05 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Again—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

You have stated now that you are going to look beyond attrition to cuts in the public service. We know from your track record and from our work on McKinsey and from the information about Accenture released yesterday by the Auditor General that you won't do it alone. Can you share with Canadians, please, whom you have hired to help you complete the layoffs in the public service?

11:10 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Again, I'm hearing more inaccurate statements by my honourable colleague.

I would first of all like to thank the public servants for their incredibly hard work. I would also like to say that our government will not be adopting DRAP-style measures like previous Conservative governments have done. We are continuing services to Canadians without any impact to delivery—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

What are you going to do to save the money, then, Minister? You have this deficit. You haven't met your deficits in recent years. The PBO says that you are overshooting the number that you gave already. You haven't been able to give a number here today. What are you going to do?

11:10 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

We will continue to be here for public servants—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

When you arrived in this position, not this past summer but the summer before, you were so enthusiastic, so peachy-keen, about all the savings you were going to find. You haven't found these savings, Minister.

11:10 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Again—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

In fact, your financial position is worse.

Tell Canadians today: What do you plan to do? You've let down the public servants. Are you going to let down Canadians as well?

11:10 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Mr. Chair, those statements are inaccurate.

On professional services, we have actually saved approximately $800 million, and we instituted a number of reforms to ensure there is more discipline in the system related to contracting with third parties. I announced those last March. They include an updated manager's guide, a revised directive on conflict of interest, a horizontal audit and the development of a risk and compliance process.

All of those measures, in addition to reducing the government's reliance on third party contractors, must be taken into account. They certainly weren't reflected in the honourable member's questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

What was reflected was the continued deficit and your letting down Canadians, which increases their taxes. You're talking about all of these programs. You don't seem to understand that these programs cost money—that they add, in fact, to the burden of Canadians. You are not keeping your promise to the public service or to Canadians, as evidenced by the continued deficit, including the one this year. You can't even tell me what it is.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

11:10 a.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Perhaps the honourable member can explain why she's going to vote against 400,000 children and the national school food program.