Evidence of meeting #159 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audits.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Garry Hartle  Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual
Alexander Jeglic  Procurement Ombud, Office of the Procurement Ombud

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 159 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known, of course, as the mighty OGGO.

Before we start, everyone, as a gentle reminder, keep your headphones away from the microphones at all times. Also, do not touch your microphone when the red light is on.

Colleagues, at the end I will need about three minutes of your time. We're going to go in camera. I want to discuss one quick item with everyone to get feedback as we proceed.

We welcome Mr. Hartle to the committee.

You have a five-minute opening statement. The floor is yours, Mr. Hartle.

We'll go for one hour, suspend, and then bring in the procurement ombudsman.

Mr. Hartle, welcome. The floor is yours, sir.

Garry Hartle Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Thank you.

The procurement strategy for indigenous business has no governing act. It is not a program; rather, it is a strategy whereby government contracts for goods and services destined for indigenous populations are awarded to indigenous businesses.

Government policy mandated that any set-aside contract for an indigenous business whose value was $2 million or greater was to have a pre-award audit. Contracts of less than that amount could be randomly audited at the discretion of the department.

Large contracts—$2 million or greater—contain a clause that allows the government to perform a post-award audit. This audit is primarily to ensure the business is compliant with the criterion of indigenous content. The criterion states that the indigenous business and/or indigenous subcontractors must perform at least 33% of the work that is required to fulfill the contract.

Today I appear before the committee to answer questions on a particularly egregious file, “Pedabun 35 Nursing Inc., Canadian Health Care Agency Ltd, in joint venture”, hereafter referred to as “the joint venture”.

The joint venture was awarded an eight-year, $160-million set-aside contract to deliver nursing direct services to remote indigenous communities. My audit determined that the joint venture was a shell for the non-indigenous Canadian Health Care Agency. This business took advantage of the naïveté of the owner of Pedabun 35 Nursing to win and execute a large set-aside contract. In my audit, I concluded that the joint venture did not exist for any other function except to enable CHCA to win and execute the PSIB mandatory set-aside contract.

I will also answer your questions on contractual joint ventures as to why they are problematic.

Finally, I would like to discuss with the committee mandatory audits.

When the policy was introduced, the mandatory audits were to be performed by Consulting & Auditing Canada. This branch of the government provided the required third party independent auditors. When it was disbanded, the services were contracted out. In November 2016, Altis Professional Services was under contract to provide the department with third party independent auditors for PSIB. I contracted my services to Altis.

The Altis contract ended in 2021. ISC decided that the new contract should be a set-aside, as required when serving the indigenous community.

Roundpoint Consulting is an Akwesasne business registered in the IBD. Mr. Roundpoint asked me to join him in submitting a bid proposal for auditing service in response to solicitation number 1000226949. Roundpoint Consulting was awarded a two-year set-aside contract. The contract had a typical renewal clause. This clause stated that the government, at its pleasure, could extend the existing contract three times, for one year each time.

In July 2023, ISC decided to ignore the mandatory auditing requirements and terminated Roundpoint's consulting contract. The business was denied any recovery costs incurred to deliver the services required. Although this is arbitrary and violates the government policy, Roundpoint unfortunately did not have the resources to pursue legal recourse. In my opinion, Roundpoint Consulting would have been successful had it sought judicial review.

I ask the committee to address two critical issues: one, the absence of external audits will mean there's a lack of oversight to detect and deter public corruption; and, two, the travesty in terminating a set-aside contract for an Akwesasne business.

Roundpoint Consulting is a small, dynamic business recognized by its community as a model in the era of first nations self-government. Mr. Roundpoint has a growing family. He is active and a valuable member of the Mohawks of Akwesasne. Mr. Roundpoint had plans to hire and train indigenous auditors while I was available to mentor these young people.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Hartle, I'm sorry. I have to ask you to wrap up. We're at our five-minute mark. If you could, just wrap up briefly.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

Well, I have some comments about yesterday's testimony by Jessica Sultan.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm afraid we only have you for an hour, so in order to get through all our rounds, I'll have to cut you off here. However, you can send to the clerk anything you have in writing, and he will have it translated and distributed to the whole committee.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

I did that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Perfect. We're going to have to cut you off there, I'm afraid. We're going to go right to our first intervention, but I'm sure you can answer or get out some of the information you're trying to get out right now.

We'll start with Mr. Genuis for six minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hartle, for your testimony. More importantly, thank you for your courage in coming forward and shedding light on these issues. I know there are a lot of people who see problems in the government or things that shouldn't be happening, but most of them don't proactively share the concerns they have, so thank you for doing that.

You've identified that this joint venture involving the Canadian Health Care Agency existed only to take advantage of the indigenous procurement rules. It wasn't an organically emergent indigenous company; it was created for the purpose of taking advantage of the rules that exist and providing a complete advantage to non-indigenous owners of the Canadian Health Care Agency.

Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

That's correct. The owner of the CHCA, Ms. Umana, promised the indigenous company, owned by a lady named Pearl Chilton, that she would make lots of money, but they never had her do anything. Ms. Umana did the proposal herself, made up employees for Ms. Chilton's company and made sure that she ran everything.

She didn't discuss any of the business of the joint venture at all with Ms. Chilton, and Ms. Chilton was left with a large GST tax bill that was incurred because of the way everything was submitted to the Canada Revenue Agency.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

It sounds like this relationship was not only fraudulent vis-à-vis the government, but it was exploitive vis-à-vis the person who was supposed to be the indigenous partner.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

That's correct.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay. I think that's important.

I want to zero in on the response of the government when you brought these issues forward.

We would hope that as soon as someone brought these issues to light, there would be a sounding of the alarm internally and a desire to remedy the situation.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

The players on the government side were FNIHB, which was a branch of Health Canada at that time; PSPC; and what was INAC at that time. I was within the INAC stream.

I wrote my report, which I distributed prior to this meeting. We then held several meetings in which we had not only those players but also a representative from the Department of Justice who was a lawyer serving INAC at that time.

I presented the evidence, which was substantial, to indicate that there was fraud, and my recommendation was that it be given to the RCMP to investigate, but they didn't want any trouble, so they didn't do it.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Can you tell us more about that? You recommended that this be referred to the RCMP because you thought criminal activity was involved, but they didn't want any trouble.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

I thought it was fraud because you can't invent employees for a company and then submit them in your bid proposal to win the contract. They did that because the number of employees in the indigenous company went toward points to win the contract. To me, that's definitely fraud.

All the documentation was there to prove that, besides additional....

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

You also said something about motivation and that they didn't want any trouble. What kinds of comments did they make to explain why they didn't refer this to the RCMP?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

I can't remember the exact comments, because at a large meeting you have your input, but you don't necessarily.... I was there only as an external auditor presenting facts to—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

There were lots of people there.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

As I said, there were representatives from PSPC, FNIHB and INAC.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

The DOJ lawyer was there also.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Fast-forward to today. This company is still getting government contracts. They've been taken off the indigenous business list, but they are still eligible for getting government contracts. The only people fired following this affair were from Roundpoint Consulting.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

That's right.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Take us forward to the fact that they're still getting contracts, but Roundpoint Consulting was fired by the government.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Compliance Auditor, As an Individual

Garry Hartle

In fact, INAC invented a program so they could give contracts to CHCA. That's how they were able to get contracts.