Government Operations Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Ms. Blaney, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I just have one follow-up question.

You talked about CHCA and some of their practices, specifically around Pearl Chilton, who was part of the joint venture. You mentioned that she “was left with a large tax bill because of a 'serious misrepresentation'”.

I'm wondering if you could talk a little about what that looked like and touch on whether Pearl Chilton had any capacity besides the judicial process to advocate for herself.

[Garry Hartle]

I wasn't talking about Ms. Chilton when I was talking about the judicial process. Ms. Chilton had avenues to pursue—legally, that is—and I think she did. She had an aboriginal lawyer represent her, and there was some litigation.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I understand that you didn't mention it, but what I'm trying to understand is this: For indigenous people who are part of this process, if something goes poorly, what are the steps they have to self-advocate? Is it only through the judicial process? As far as you're telling us right now, it seems that the only way they can address it is by getting a lawyer.

[Garry Hartle]

Ms. Chilton asked INAC for help. INAC didn't help her. Advocacy, in that manner, was out of the question. All that remained for her at that point was the legal process.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I'm done. That's my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We'll go to Mr. Genuis for five minutes, and then we'll finish with Mr. Sousa for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Frankly, Mr. Hartle, this whole situation is just disgusting. A department in government is supposed to be there to support indigenous peoples, a Prime Minister said that this is the most important relationship, and then we have what we've been talking about throughout this whole scandal, which is that elite well-connected non-indigenous insiders were taking advantage of the program to try to enrich themselves and that indigenous peoples being left at a severe disadvantage as a result. The government and the department did not have their back and only tried to preserve the optics of the program.

To review your testimony, you identified that there was a problem with the Canadian Health Care Agency. The minister was likely informed. You wanted to refer this issue to the RCMP. You were blocked from doing so. They subsequently changed the rules to make the auditing process more difficult, and then they fired your auditing company.

Is that correct?

[Garry Hartle]

Exactly.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

You wanted to follow up on your reaction to Ms. Sultan's testimony yesterday.

[Garry Hartle]

I think I've covered quite a bit of that.

One thing was stating that it was a joint decision, when in fact it was a unilateral decision by Ms. Sultan, and then there was a question about the work. She said that the work changed, which is a total falsehood.

Roundpoint Consulting dealt with a number of tasks, which included the desk audits of new registrants, ensuring existing registrants had maintained IBD eligibility, pre-award audits on set-aside contracts, random audits designated by the senior program manager and large set-aside post-award audits when they were 70% completed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

In particular, as part of that auditing process, you were looking at indigeneity, at whether these companies were actually indigenous. The department at some point decided that they did not want you looking at indigeneity.

A key issue here is misrepresentation of indigenous identity, meaning indigenous identity fraud by companies that are getting government contracts. They made a policy change to prevent external auditors from looking precisely at whether indigenous identity fraud was happening.

Why do you think they made that change?

[Garry Hartle]

I think there was pressure from certain indigenous groups. That was one of the things. They were always petitioning the department. I think what was mentioned in yesterday's meeting, which I watched, is that some of these groups want to set up their own directories and have the government access those.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I suppose that having the communities themselves do the work is a different issue. The problem is that now nobody's looking at it. The government, it seems, exploited this desire to have the indigenous communities themselves do this work by essentially creating a vacuum in which, right now, nobody's looking at indigeneity.

[Garry Hartle]

Nobody's looking at it right now, not externally, and if you don't use an external independent auditor, you'll leave yourself open to bias.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, totally.

In the time I have left, Chair, I want to seek the agreement of the committee for the following proposal. I think this has been distributed. I asked it to be distributed in advance. It reads, “That the committee invite the following witnesses to appear in relation to potential abuse of the indigenous procurement rules involving Canadian Health Care Agency: Canadian Health Care Agency, Sharon Umana, Jessica Sultan and Pearl Chilton, and further, that the committee authorize the chair to summon witnesses who do not agree to appear.”

I hope that's been distributed.

I'm seeking the agreement of the committee.

[Garry Hartle]

Can I add Melanie Reid, who was in charge at that time as the senior program manager? She should maybe be on your list.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. That's what I meant to say, Chair, as well.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

In fact, I just misread my own notes here. As I was saying, “Canadian Health Care Agency, Sharon Umana, Jessica Sultan, Melanie Reid, and Pearl Chilton.”

If Melanie Reid is not on the distributed email, I'm sure it's the clerk's fault, not mine.

I'm just joking.

That's a great addition, Mr. Hartle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Are we fine with the—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

We just got it. I haven't even looked at it yet. Did you say that it was previously distributed?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It just came out now.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I haven't even got it on my P9 yet.