Government Operations Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Garry Hartle]

You were dealing with.... I don't like to use the words “junior staff”, because that's condescending, but you were dealing with people who didn't have any knowledge of the program, didn't have any knowledge in dealing with outside clients, didn't know what questions to ask and didn't know what documents to ask for. It was like constant hand-holding.

Instead of being able to smoothly carry out the audits as they had been done previously, we also had a productivity standard that we had to meet, which stated that if there was no other cause, then you had to deliver the report within 10 working days so that the process worked very smoothly. This got disrupted because she insisted that the junior staff do all this work.

The junior staff were very nice people, and we tried to help them as much as we could, but because they didn't understand the program, they didn't know what to ask for or how to ask it. You're not supposed to go fishing for anything. As an auditor, you're supposed to know what documents are available for you to examine. You don't ask a company to send every document they have. It's a very targeted experience, and they didn't comprehend that because they weren't auditors.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. That's really helpful.

You talked about the issue of Roundpoint Consulting. I thought it was very interesting—and I've heard this from indigenous communities as well—that if they fight the fight and have the money to hire the lawyers, they're absolutely going to win, but that they often don't have the resources to hire the lawyers. I'm just wondering whether I can get a little clarity. Is there no other venue that they can go to besides a judicial process? Is there any other mechanism for this kind of business to gather clarity, get information and have a little bit of advocacy, or is the judicial pathway the only pathway?

[Garry Hartle]

Well, because you're dealing with a contract, a written contract, and you decide that you're going to terminate the contract for convenience.... The contract does state that you can do that for convenience. Then judicial review is the only legitimate path to pursue, which means that you're showing that the government did wrong. I'm positive that Roundpoint Consulting would have won its case.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm going to come back to that later.

You talked about mandatory audits being a part of the contract and that you saw ISC not following through with those mandatory steps. Are you specifically talking about one business, or is it a broader scope that you're reflecting on?

[Garry Hartle]

No. After July 2023, they had no capability to carry out any audits. All of the mandated audits that are in the guidelines were being circumvented because they had no external auditors. If you wish, you can read the guidelines. They state clearly that you must have an external auditor. When the program was first started, the government already had a branch that would supply the external auditors, so they used them. That was Consulting and Auditing Canada, but then the government disbanded that branch, so they had to find private sector external auditors.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Before we start our second round, Mr. Hartle, you've referred to some reports. I think you sent them to a different committee, but you have to send them to each committee individually. If you could forward those to our clerk, we'll follow up with you after this for the proper email.

[Garry Hartle]

I have them. They're all here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You can pass them over to the clerk when you're done today.

[Garry Hartle]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go to Mrs. Block for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome to our committee, Mr. Hartle.

To follow up on Mrs. Atwin's questions, you mentioned that there was a whole list of criteria used in order to verify the indigeneity of a business. Would you be willing to share that list with the committee in writing?

[Garry Hartle]

Yes, I have that here. I was just looking it up. I have that document.

We also would have read all the case law, notably Powley and Daniels. We were also guided by section 35 of the Constitution Act.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much. I would just ask that if you have that document, you submit it to the committee in writing. That would save you and me both a bit of time here.

[Garry Hartle]

Yes, I will do that. In fact, I have it right here.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you. That's great.

I believe you may have answered this question as well. With whom did you raise your concerns about the PSIB and the ongoing abuses?

[Garry Hartle]

When I first started, the senior program manager was a lady named Melanie Reid. Melanie is indigenous and she was concerned about the program running smoothly. She held meetings and took suggestions about what could be done, including on our audit manual. I wrote some stuff on contractual joint ventures with some recommendations.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

What was her title?

[Garry Hartle]

At that time, she was a senior program manager.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

[Garry Hartle]

Presently, she is a director at ISC.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

In the story in The Globe and Mail, Minister Hajdu is quoted as saying, “I was just made aware of these deeply troubling allegations, and I am extremely concerned”, yet the allegations around this nursing company, CHCA, had already been published in October in The Globe and Mail, and further issues with the PSIB have been brought to light around the inability to verify the indigeneity of businesses. However, the minister appears to have been unaware of these issues until this past Sunday, according to her statement.

Does it seem realistic to you that the minister was completely blind to this massive aspect of her portfolio?

[Garry Hartle]

Not really.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Do you believe these types of concerns would have ever made their way to the office of at least the deputy minister, if not the minister?

[Garry Hartle]

I was speaking about what went on in 2017, 2018 and 2019. Any problems with the program would have been discussed with the ADM by the senior program manager. She had a path to discuss them with the ADM. Once you discuss them with the ADM, the minister is always notified that there is a problem. That's standard practice.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

This is my final question for you, if I have enough time left.

Yesterday, in your testimony to the INAN committee, you were asked a question about who made the decision to fire Roundpoint. It would appear that when Ms. Sultan was trying to answer the question, the minister intervened.

Can you confirm for us who made the decision to fire Roundpoint? Do you, in fact, know?