Evidence of meeting #161 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Solloway and Mr. Radford, for being with us today.
My questions will be aimed at painting a complete picture of the situation.
How many full-time permanent employees do you have on your team right now?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
That's a good question. I only have the total number of employees with me today, so I'll have to check that, but I would say that about 10 of our employees are determinate employees. I had concerns about the budget, so I didn't want to make a longer-term commitment. The rest are full-time, permanent employees. We have a part-time employee who has been appointed for a specific employment period.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, because you also answered other questions I was going to ask you.
Are any of your employees lawyers?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
We have seven lawyers, and Mr. Radford is general counsel.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
What type of profile or training are you looking for in order to fill the team positions?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Are you talking about lawyers?
Bloc
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
As far as lawyers are concerned, I'll ask Mr. Radford to answer, because he's responsible for recruiting lawyers.
Brian Radford Acting Deputy Commissioner and General Counsel, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
As for lawyers, basically, we're looking for administrative law specialists, people who have experience in administrative investigations. As for staff members who are investigators or analysts, they have to have a good understanding of administrative investigations. We conduct investigations at all levels of the public service, including at the highest levels. Our investigations are therefore sophisticated and require a high degree of respect for procedural fairness and natural justice. It is important for all employees of the Office of the Commissioner to have a good understanding of these concepts.
In addition, at the Office of the Commissioner, the operations section and the legal service work closely together. As soon as a file is submitted to the Office of the Commissioner, it is assigned to an analyst and a lawyer at the same time; the work is done in a multidisciplinary manner. A good knowledge of administrative law and administrative investigations is therefore essential in this complex environment where we conduct sensitive investigations.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
Earlier, I heard you say that you wanted to increase the number of employees to 79, then reduce that number to 75.
Are they full-time, contract employees, so determinate employees, or are they full-time, permanent employees?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
It's a mix of both, because we anticipate that, to meet the surge in cases and catch up on the backlog, we'll need to have a few more people on the ground or assigned to process those files. It's to catch up on the backlog that we're looking at hiring more people.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
Do you consider the salaries offered to the Office of the Commissioner to be competitive? Does that encourage people to submit their CVs?
We can draw a comparison between people working in the other offices of the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada and people who have more or less the same job in the private sector.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
I haven't done that comparison at all, so I won't be able to give you an answer. Perhaps my colleague Mr. Radford can answer your question.
Acting Deputy Commissioner and General Counsel, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
It's a bit difficult to make a comparison with employees who work in the provincial public service, because they're paid very differently. In some cases, they're paid less; in others, they're paid more.
In terms of other commissioners, we have analysts who are classified at the EC‑03 level. We have a number of lawyers who are LP‑02s. It's really a group responsible for doing the work at the operational level. Our investigators are AS‑6. That's kind of how we're organized.
Among those groups, I believe that analyst positions may attract people who are just starting their career, because EC‑03 is not a very high rank.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
It's hard to retain the analysts because of that.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Would a review of pay scales be appropriate to ensure the retention of staff with expertise and experience within the office?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
That's something we need to look at, as well as opportunities for advancement, because right now, analysts don't really have opportunities to advance their careers within our organization. So they will definitely leave.
We are looking at our organization to see what we can do to make it more attractive for these people to stay than to leave.
I have to say that it's quite interesting for investigators and lawyers to stay for a while. That is my impression, but Mr. Radford could tell you that, since he has been with the Office of the Commissioner for longer than I have.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Solloway and Mr. Radford.
I'll save my other questions for the next round of questions.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.
Ms. Blaney, go ahead, please, for six minutes.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I thank you both for being here today with us.
I was really compelled by what I read and your testimony today, Ms. Solloway. You talked about how there is an increase that you think hasn't reached its plateau that will define the new normal, and you talked a lot about having a backlog.
Can you help me understand how big the backlog is? Are there particular issues that you see coming up more frequently now as we move towards the next plateau?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
In terms of the issues, there are a really wide variety. We do get a lot of disclosures, or supposed disclosures, that are strictly personal in nature and for which a grievance process or the Canadian Human Rights Commission would be the more appropriate way to go. We do see a lot of that, but that's not really within our mandate, so we typically signal to the person that they might want to either file a grievance or go to the Canadian Human Rights Commission, for example.
We really do get a wide variety of things. If you look at our two case reports this year, you'll see that one was a leak in the Matsqui complex in which chemically treated water was leaching into the soil, while another one involved harassment on a grand scale.
It's a really wide variety that we get. I don't see one more than another.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
With that wide variety, you talked about the staff that you have. I'm wondering how you address that wide scope of need.
My other question is about what we've heard in testimony from other folks, which was that while short-term funding may help out through a hard part, it really focuses on temporary employees who come and go, which doesn't allow the time for them to get the training and the skills they require, and then you lose that. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about why permanent funding is really helpful in building up that capacity with the broad scope of the work you do.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Thank you.
It's very critical because, for example, when an analyst comes in, I would say it takes six months to a year before they're up to speed. Two of our lawyers are LP-01s. They're fairly new. Even the ones who are more experienced are new to our work. I'm subject to being corrected by Brian, but I would say it takes six months to a year before they're fully effective, so retention is really critical to us.
We are a rather frugal group, and it may be that we should be looking at some higher levels to make sure that we can retain the knowledge that is gained in PSIC. In terms of specialized expertise, given our size, most of us are wearing double hats, triple hats and quadruple hats because we don't have the luxury of having specialists in just about anything. That is a challenge.
It's my understanding that before my arrival, outside expertise was consulted on occasion. It makes some investigations more challenging for our investigators who are not specialists in certain areas, and it limits how deeply we can go into some of these things, because we just don't have that level of expertise.
Yes, more adequate funding would definitely enable us to do more effective investigations into specialized areas.