Government Operations Committee on June 7th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Majid Jowhari]

Welcome to meeting number 24 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, OGGO. Today we will hear from the President of the Treasury Board and officials regarding the subject matter of supplementary estimates (A), 2022-23.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Regarding the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person.

Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain a two-metre physical distancing, whether seated or standing. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks, which provide better clarity over cloth masks, are available in the room. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces such as the desk, chair and microphone with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.

As the substitute for the chair, who is on his way, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I look forward to the chair arriving here as soon as possible. I thank members in advance for this co-operation.

I would like to welcome the President of the Treasury Board and her colleagues.

I invite you to make your opening remarks. I believe you have five minutes.

Minister, the floor is yours. Welcome to our committee once again.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for welcoming me once again to the committee to discuss the supplementary estimates (A) 2022‑23. I am sure you have all received them.

Today, I am joined by an extraordinary team of senior Treasury Board Secretariat officials: Annie Boudreau, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Karen Cahill, assistant secretary and chief financial officer; and Marie‑Chantal Girard, senior assistant deputy minister, employee relations and total compensation. With us online we also have Monia Lahaie, assistant comptroller general, financial management sector; Samantha Tattersall, assistant comptroller general, acquired services and assets sector; and Paul Wagner, assistant deputy minister, strategy and transformation.

Open, transparent and accountable government means ensuring that parliamentarians and Canadians know how public funds are being invested on their behalf. This is why, in addition to estimates documents, we continue to make use of reporting tools such as GC InfoBase and the Open Government portal. These tools allow users to easily see the authorities approved by Parliament.

I would now like to turn to the supplementary estimates (A) 2022‑23.

These supplementary estimates present information on additional spending requirements which were not sufficiently defined at the time of tabling of the main estimates, or which have been subsequently refined to reflect new developments.

In these supplementary estimates, the government is asking Parliament to approve $8.8 billion in voted budgetary expenditures in 26 organizations to address issues of importance to Canadians.

The supplementary estimates also show, for information purposes, planned statutory spending of $860 million.

The major items requested in this year's supplementary estimates are:

There's $2.1 billion for the Department of Indigenous Services for costs related to compensation agreements in connection with the first nations child and family services program and Jordan's principle, and for reforms to the programs.

There's $1.4 billion for the Public Health Agency of Canada for the procurement of additional COVID-19 therapeutics to meet the needs of provincial and territorial health systems.

There's $1.2 billion for the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs for settlements.

The budget allocates $823.6 million to the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness under the Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements program. This program provides financial assistance to provincial and territorial governments and will be used to cover costs related to disasters over the past decade, such as the Fort McMurray, Alberta, forest fires in 2016, the New Brunswick ice storm in 2017, and the spring floods in Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec in the same year.

Five hundred million in funding is earmarked for the Department of National Defence for military support to Ukraine to help defend its sovereignty.

There is $329.7 million for the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority to support security screening at airports across the country.

Finally, $322.5 million is provided for the Department of Transport to extend and expand the Incentives for Zero-Emission Vehicles Program. This will encourage the purchase of more vehicle models, including vans, trucks and SUVs.

While approximately $1 billion of the planned budgetary spending presented in the supplementary estimates (A) relates to budget 2022 proposals, additional authorities to implement other budget 2022 initiatives will be sought in future supplementary estimates once implementation plans are further developed.

These estimates demonstrate our government's ongoing commitment to improving outcomes for Canadians. We are investing in public health, indigenous children and families, disaster response and recovery, and the fight against climate change. We are also supporting international partners that share our democratic values.

These efforts are all critically important, and I want to thank the members of the committee for inviting me here to discuss them further today.

We are ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you very much for being here today.

I apologize for being late. Unfortunately, flights are the way they are these days and delays happen.

We'll now go into questions with Mr. McCauley for six minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister, it's great to have you here.

Chair, it's nice of you to show up. Thanks.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have some relatively simpler items than in the past.

My first question—you can get back to us on this—relates to the question I asked this week and last week about split contracts. Order Paper question 364, which we asked, showed hundreds and hundreds of obviously split contracts. There was OSFI and the Auditor General's office. They were very clearly split.

Would you get back to us on what the government plan is to end the practice of the government violating Treasury Board rules to split contracts? If you could get back to us, that would be wonderful.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Can I answer part of that now? I have that answer for you.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If you have a quick one, please, go ahead.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The Treasury Board directive is clear that—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I read it in the House today.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

—requirements should not be divided “to avoid financial approval thresholds or policy requirements, such as contract entry limits, regulatory rules and trade agreement obligations” and that all departments are responsible for contracting and “Establishing, implementing and maintaining a departmental procurement management framework, consisting of processes, systems and controls”.

Just so that you know, a firm getting multiple contracts is not necessarily indicative of contract splitting.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm going to interrupt.

The Order Paper clearly shows otherwise, and we have the proof. What is the department doing to prevent this?

I realize, department by department.... However, this is the enforcement of Treasury Board rules very clearly being violated. The same order from the same vendor was split up into four different contracts at $24,999 each. They were all for the same thing.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'll still under—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Maybe get back to us because I'm not getting the answer.

How is it being enforced?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I will finish, if I can.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sure.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Samantha will also complement my answer.

Under the directive, when considering a new contract, departments must “verify whether a mandatory standing offer or supply arrangement exists that meets their requirements”. If one does, the contracting department must use it. Under the TBS directive, it is also mandatory for departments to use standing offers for certain commodities.

I will also ask Samantha to complement this.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, actually, I'm fine. I'm running out of time. I'm going to move on.

Just quickly, when will we have an updated mandate policy for the public service? I think it was due maybe a month ago. Do you know what date that will be provided?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

First, thank you for the question. I know that we are currently reviewing the vaccine mandate for public servants. I'm hopeful that we will be giving more information very soon.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you think within a month, or do you think over the summertime...?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, I would prefer not to give a time frame at this time. We are studying it at this time. The review should be done as soon as possible.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

There is money in the supplementary (A)s for office accommodations. Do we have enough office space to accommodate all the new people hired during the pandemic?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for asking that question. As you know, we are in a new form of the workplace, with hybrid being part of the solution.

I might have one of my colleagues answer your question more specifically, but I would say that, at this time, we are monitoring office space for the needs of public servants.

Marie-Chantal...?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Ms. Girard, do we have enough office space for all the new people added?

[Marie-Chantal Girard, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Employee Relations and Total Compensation, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Indeed, in terms of what departments are doing now, the health and safety guidance allows us to bring people back in—