Evidence of meeting #30 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gripen.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here today.
At committee, we’ve been told that the F‑35 was chosen because it was a fifth-generation aircraft, whereas the Gripen E is fourth generation, and that means it would have limited capability against Russian air defences. Another reason cited is the fact that Sweden is not a NORAD partner country. This led to concerns about security within NORAD and about interoperability with the United States. However, you’re telling us that you meet all these requirements.
In terms of operational capabilities, what are the advantages of the Gripen E relative to the F‑35?
President, Saab
As you've correctly stated, we are fully compliant with the interoperability and security assessment piece of the program, and we remain committed to that bid that meets those NORAD and the Five Eyes compliances.
Regarding the technical capability, I'll hand that over to my colleague to respond to that part.
Executive Vice-President, Head of Saab Technologies Canada, Inc., Saab
To further Simon's explanation, when Canada and any country buys a fighter jet, they're buying a fighter jet for an extended period of time. They're looking at it for decades. What's relevant today is not necessarily relevant tomorrow from a threat perspective, a technology perspective and other perspectives.
When we look forward, the Gripen is designed to be credible, relevant and state of the art for the life of the program. The notion of fourth and fifth generations is actually more of a marketing term than anything else. What we've done is gotten away from generations and looked at it as a generation-less fighter. We want to make sure that fighter is relevant 20 and 30 years down the road, when we still need it. What we've done is we've created a fighter that's easily adaptable and easily upgradable.
To give you an example, some of the things to upgrade a typical fighter would take years to do the way the software and the mission systems are developed. What we've done is we've created an environment so that the software is easily adaptable. Now you can do things in a matter of hours or days or weeks, as opposed to years.
As new technologies become available to respond to new threats, whether you're introducing a new missile capability or whether you're introducing a new sensor or a new radar, our fighter is easily adaptable to meet those requirements for the life of the program.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, that's interesting.
So, if Saab met all of the requirements and was the only bidder left to guarantee industrial and technological spinoffs, guaranteed pricing and timely delivery of the plane, why do you think the government turned to Lockheed Martin?
Why is it negotiating when your proposal offers everything on a platter?
President, Saab
We can't really comment on why the government chose Lockheed Martin.
We can comment on the fact that we offered a proposal in which there were no compromises to Canada. It offered budget stability. It offered the right capability for the aircraft in meeting all of the interoperability and security assessments, along with the operational and technical capability of the aircraft. It also offered a 100% guaranteed economic benefits package that would have benefited Canada now and well into the future.
The economic benefits package would have given Canada the opportunity to control the aircraft well into the future. As per my statement, the number of centres of excellence and facilities we were looking to set up in Canada would have employed Canadians in provinces such as Quebec and all the other provinces I mentioned before, to make sure that we put the maximum return into Canada for the life of the program.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Essentially, what you are telling us is that this plane is adaptable and upgradable, that training and repairs would be done here, and you are offering everything Canada needs so it can to upgrade its own planes based on its future requirements. That is what I understood. And yet your offer was refused.
President, Saab
Yes. Your statement regarding what we were offering Canada is correct. We were looking to put not only the transfer of technology but also the ownership of the IP in Canada, so that they could have control over the aircraft for the period of the life of the aircraft.
Patrick, do you want to add anything?
Executive Vice-President, Head of Saab Technologies Canada, Inc., Saab
I would emphasize that it's far greater than just doing the maintenance. It's also doing the sustainment and the upgrade path.
When you look at Canadians and how we use our equipment, we use that equipment for a very long period of time. It's probably much longer than what was originally anticipated. In order to do that, you have to have access, as Simon said, to the intellectual property and the knowledge. What we've committed to—and we're still committed to doing it—is bringing that capability into Canada as part of the Gripen centre in the regional municipality of Montreal.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen
Thank you, Ms. Vignola.
I'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you all for being here.
I'll start with Mr. Carroll and Mr. Palmer.
The presentation you gave us identifies the Gripen as the only made-in-Canada solution that would create new, long-term jobs in Canada. Can you discuss how labour market shortages have impacted Saab Canada's operations?
President, Saab
At present, we have 50-odd employees across Canada. Like all other companies—not just in the defence industry but in other industries—the fight for talent is really quite intense at the moment.
The labour market shortages are something that we are working toward. We are looking at working with a number of different organizations and we are looking into universities. As part of the Gripen for Canada program, we were putting together an educational program for which we were looking to engage universities and some first nations communities.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Is your focus right now on temporary foreign workers to fill the need?
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay. We're hearing lots of that happening right now.
I really appreciate your raising that we're on the eve of the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. Call to action 92 is very explicit. It calls on the corporate sector:
...to adopt the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as a reconciliation framework and to apply its principles, norms, and standards to corporate policy and core operational activities involving Indigenous peoples and their lands and resources. This would include, but not be limited to, the following:
i. Commit to meaningful consultation, building respectful relationships, and obtaining the free, prior, and informed consent of Indigenous peoples before proceeding with economic development projects.
ii. Ensure that Aboriginal peoples have equitable access to jobs, training, and education opportunities in the corporate sector, and that Aboriginal communities gain long-term sustainable benefits from economic development projects.
iii. Provide education for management and staff on the history of Aboriginal peoples, including the history and legacy of residential schools, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, Treaties and Aboriginal rights, Indigenous law, and Aboriginal-Crown relations. This will require skills based training in intercultural competency, conflict resolution, human rights, and anti-racism.
How do you feel you're measuring up to meet that call to action? Where are you progressing and where are you failing?
President, Saab
Obviously, it's an extremely important issue given the current climate and the climate from the past as well. I would say, before I hand it to my colleague, we have identified it as a concern and an opportunity, for us to work with the indigenous communities in Canada. I'll ask Patrick to speak about what we were looking at as part of the future fighter program, but I'm happy to announce that we are already working with one of the indigenous first nations on Vancouver Island on a program that we are trialling. Only last week we started the trial.
Executive Vice-President, Head of Saab Technologies Canada, Inc., Saab
The only thing I'll add is that, as part of the future fighter capability program and our offer, we recognize that as a very key component. We've had quite a few discussions and meetings with respect to how to support them from an academic perspective and bring them some of the talent and some of the skills sets that would leverage them and add to their future.
President, Leonardo Canada
Yes.
I can echo what my colleagues have said, but also, at Leonardo, in the current proposition we have the extensive involvement of indigenous communities. We also, separately from FAcT or Cormorant or the other current programs, established relationships with indigenous communities.
We are also supporting an organization called Orbis. That has the goal to detect diabetes in young indigenous people in the most remote communities. They use an aircraft. We install technology with them. They go into these communities. These communities are not accessible by roads. The only way into these communities is by plane. We leverage our technology, research and development and innovation, plus. We hope that we can do better for these communities.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I imagine the CC-295 would help get to these communities as well.
Maybe just in 30 seconds could you tell us your top disappointment in the procurement process and what needs to be fixed? That's why we're here today. That's what we're working on in this study.
I'll let you have 30 seconds each.