Government Operations Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I guess the thought would be to work with the tribal councils and with the individual nations to explain where they are at in terms of the threshold and target.

A 2021 paper prepared for the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business recommended introducing a new micro-contract policy for federal contracts of less than $10,000. These micro-contracts would be exclusive indigenous set-asides and would be written in plain language.

Can you talk about the federal government introducing this type of micro-contract policy, and do you think it would reduce barriers of entry to indigenous businesses? I certainly believe it would, and for the Nuu-chah-nulth territory nations as well.

[Michael Mills]

One of the things that we are really trying to figure out, from a procurement modernization perspective, is where we're over-expending effort internally and demanding external purchase, so we're looking at smaller dollar-value contracts in which maybe we can use even more informal processes.

Some of our colleagues have experimented with processes whereby businesses are invited in. They describe a challenge, and it's almost like a speed-dating exercise. The businesses would say how they might meet that requirement. Then procurement can say, “Okay, that approach meets our need”, and then go and negotiate.

We're looking at those kinds of opportunities where the engagement procurement process would be much more scaled to the actual size of the opportunity and the nature of the business. That is something that we really want to look at more and more for our simplification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

With that, we have come to the end of our questions.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today. Thank you to those here in person and to Ms. Royds for being with us again virtually.

Ms. Royds, we hope that you're feeling better soon and are able to come in person next time.

Mr. Mills, Mr. Lawrence-Whyte and Mr. Ozmutlu, thank you very much for being here.

With that, I will dismiss the witnesses.

We'll now move on to the committee business. Just so that the committee is aware, I will remind you that we are in public.

We have a couple of things I want to cover. The first is that Ms. Vignola has her motion on the table. She has now presented another motion. My understanding is that there have been discussions among everybody that there's general agreement on accepting the new motion as she's presented it. Is that correct? We need you to move that first, if that's the case.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Other discussions took place today.

Initially, I reworked my motion in light of the suggestions I received. I was told that it shouldn't be a problem.

Since I didn't get a response within 48 hours, I figured I wouldn't run into any problems.

Today, however, new amendments were brought to my attention. I'll let my fellow members move those. Then we can quickly discuss them. The changes concern what is being submitted and when, as well as what we are asking for and when.

We all agree that we want the documents. I think what my fellow members want to revisit are the dates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Before we get there, Ms. Vignola, I need you to move the motion if we're going to discuss it.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right.

It reads as follows:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of the expenses of the Office of the Governor General’s Secretary for its representation activities abroad and in Canada for the years 2015 to the present [in other words, for Mr. Johnston's last two years, Ms. Payette's time in office and Ms. Simon's time in office];

(1) that, in light of the information disclosed since the meeting on Thursday, September 22, concerning the testimony of representatives of organizations related to the decision-making process and the use of budgets by and for the Office of the Governor General’s Secretary, the committee invite the following witnesses to testify:

Christine MacIntyre, Deputy Secretary, Policy, Program and Protocol Branch, Office of the Governor General’s Secretary;

Stewart Wheeler, Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development;

Senior officials of the Department of Canadian Heritage;

Senior representatives of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;

Any other witnesses whom the committee deems appropriate to invite;

(2) that testimonies take place over for at least three meetings and that the committee has his first meeting on its study at the latest on Monday, November 15, 2022; the other meetings being scheduled in accordance with the schedule prepared for the other studies taking place [upon agreement with the clerk and the chair];

(3) that Department of National Defence, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Department of Canadian Heritage and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police table the financial reports of the expenses incurred during the trips of the Governors General from 2015 to present, broken down by trip and by item of expenditure including, in particular, accommodation costs, catering costs, caterer costs, travel costs, security costs, and costs for alcohol and drinks, indicating the number of people included for each delegation;

(4) that copies of invoices associated with the March 2022 trip to the Middle East of the Office of the Governor General’s Secretary be produced;

(5) that the said documents be submitted in English and French and forwarded no later than Monday, October 31, 2022, at noon to the Clerk of the committee and that the Clerk forward them upon receipt to the members of the committee;

(6) that the committee report its observations and recommendations to the House.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

Now the floor is open for debate. Is there any discussion?

Go ahead, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm going to try to put all of the different amendments that we discussed into the motion. I can maybe give a synopsis of what we propose beforehand and then we can go with the discussion.

There will be one amendment, but I'll read it all together as I've drafted it.

Basically, we would propose that this be limited to foreign travel of the Governor General, not domestic travel. We would ask for production by October 31, in number 4, “the invoices associated with the...trip to the Middle East”, and we would add to number 4 “a list of all the foreign travel undertaken by the current Governor General and the two previous Governor Generals.”

When the committee receives that document on the travel taken by the current and former Governors General, we would select two years from each Governor General and ask that the travel be produced for those years, once we see what travel took place in what years. Instead of asking for all of the voyages since 2015, we would pick two years for each Governor General so that there would be a comparison.

The first thing would be to get a list of all the foreign travel taken by the Governors General in each year since David Johnston first became Governor General.

Those documents—because that would be complex and that's not easy—that are set out in number 3 don't exist right now in a synthesized format, that we know of, anywhere. It would mean that the Office of the Governor General would need to put it all together and compile it. Those documents would only have to be produced in January, before the House returns, before we have our last two meetings on the subject.

Basically, October 31 would be for copies of the invoices for the trip on March 22, 2022, and a list of all the foreign travel of each of the current and two previous Governors General. The committee would then decide the years for which we wanted production of all of the documents—presumably two years for each Governor General—and then that would be due in January.

That's what we discussed with Ms. Vignola.

Mr. Chair, I've gone through the paragraphs. In order for this to make sense, what I would suggest is reading the amendments, and then we could have the discussion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Once you're done with that, the clerk can make a copy of it.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Of course. I've only written it in a scattered fashion right now, so I'm hoping that we can better produce it.

Number 3 would now read at the beginning, “For the years selected by the committee,” that Department of National Defence.... Nothing will change other than that. Then, in the third line, instead of “trips”, it would say “foreign trips”, and instead of “the Governors General from 2015 to present”, it would say, “of the current Governor General and the previous two Governor Generals....”

I'll just wait until you're clear on that, Mr. Clerk, and then I'll go to the next amendment.

Would you like me to read it back as it would read completely?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Paul Cardegna]

Yes, that would be very helpful. Thank you.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

In my view it would be,

For the years selected by the committee, that Department of National Defence, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Department of Canadian Heritage and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police table the financial reports of the expenses incurred during the foreign trips of the current Governor General and two previous Governor Generals, broken down by trip and by item of expenditure....

Nothing else would change.

[The Clerk]

Right. The rest would be the same.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

On number 4, it would say exactly as it says now, “that copies of invoices associated with the March 2022 trip to the Middle East of the Office of the Governor General’s Secretary be produced; as well as a list of all foreign trips undertaken by the current Governor General and the two previous Governors General....”

[The Clerk]

This would be the two previous Governors General?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes, meaning Payette and Johnston.

When you're ready, Mr. Clerk, in number 5 it would be, “the documents required under section 4 be submitted....”

Then number 6 would be, after “to the members of the committee”, “that the committee will determine the years for which the documents set out in 3) will be produced, and that those documents be produced no later than January 25, 2023.”

[The Clerk]

I beg your pardon, Mr. Housefather. For number 6, could you repeat that, please, so I can make sure I have it all down?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Sure: It's “that the committee will determine the years of production for the documents required under section 3), and that those documents shall be produced to the clerk of the committee no later than January 25, 2023.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Housefather, on a point of clarification, would number 6 that's on the document now become number 7?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes, sir.

My colleague Ms. Thompson has mentioned to me, which is absolutely true, that if the “that” at the beginning is part of the resolution, the words “and in Canada” should be removed, so it should be “for its representation activities abroad” and it should be “for the years selected by the committee” in the “that”, if that's part of the resolution. I'm not sure if it is.

[The Clerk]

I need to know what section you're referring to.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

If you go to the beginning, Mr. Clerk, before number 1, there's a “that”. I'm not sure if it's really part of the motion or not, but if it is, then we'd need to remove the words “and in Canada”.

[The Clerk]

Okay. You're saying to remove “and in Canada”.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Then after that it would be “for the years selected by the committee”, not “2015 to the present”, because the committee will select the years of the travel for which it wishes to receive reports.

[The Clerk]

So it's replacing “and in Canada for the years 2015 to the present” with “for the years”—