Government Operations Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you both for being here. I really appreciate it.

We've seen what's happening with climate emergencies right now in Canada. We saw obviously the hurricane on the east coast and forest fires in B.C. last year, where there were hundreds of military personnel and equipment deployed to British Columbia, and the flooding here in Ottawa. Right now, there are smoky skies still in B.C. People can barely breathe. I think we've had two millimetres of rain where I live, and normally we've had a few hundred millimetres of rain by now in the same period of time from August to October.

The military is going to be called upon more and more for climate emergencies, and firefighting is going to be a big part of that component. I have Coulson Aviation in my riding. They do a lot of firefighting around the world, in Australia, Argentina, the United States, you name it. They're one of the largest global aerial firefighting companies, especially night firefighting, in the world.

Mr. Cormier, could you speak a little bit about the need for extreme weather considerations when it comes to the design of our military equipment? Maybe you could give us some thoughts on.... You know where I'm going with this.

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

It's a tough question. It's one of the key things that we hear from the chief of the defence staff right now when he takes these matters to the public.

The Canadian Armed Forces is a limited instrument. As you keep pulling back on domestic security issues and domestic operations, you don't necessarily have the capacity to do external work with our allies. It's a very tough balancing act. There is a variety of ways forward. There are talks of creating a civilian force or using the reserve force in a way that's a little bit different from the regular forces for domestic operations.

We usually talk of the whole of government when we look at all of Ottawa. We call that whole of government. I want to take it to the next level. We need whole of government pan-Canada style where we go in and bring the provinces and the mayors to have this conversation on how we create a much more resilient Canada so when Fiona hits, you don't have someone going out there saying they need a thousand troops without necessarily explaining what exactly those troops are going to be used for. It's more of a political message to make a demand for a thousand troops without having a list of requirements of what's that going to look like on the ground.

What we need is a local capacity. We need to pay for it. We need to find ways to transition resources from the federal and provincial levels to the cities so they can build infrastructure that is resilient and have local capacity. Funding groups...whether it's the Red Cross, or St. John Ambulance, or Team Rubicon, there are lot of organizations that can do much more work on these matters and help take a bit of the pressure off the Canadian Armed Forces. That's one way to look at it.

I hope that answers a little bit of your question.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Just looking at what we have, I know the Americans have firefighting capabilities. They use C-130s. They actually put firefighting tanks on their CH-47s and Black Hawks. That's common practice down there.

Do you see opportunities for us in Canada to create a pan-Canadian kind of role with the military equipment we have, but also using some of the opportunities just to refit the existing infrastructure that we got so we can work with the provinces and support them in a more efficient and effective way?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I think we will wind up putting the cart before the bulls, because you have to ask yourselves if we want the Canadian military to do more work on domestic operations or if we want to alleviate the pressures on them. Once that decision is taken, and we've built the resiliency across Canada, then we can have that conversation.

Having said that, I think there are a lot of capabilities existing in the Canadian Armed Forces that are able to react to emergencies. That's why we call on them. Whether it's logistics, it's a willing mobilized, highly effective workforce that's able to do first aid work and so forth, or having the equipment that's able to carry out medical emergencies, these are all things that the military is actually quite good at.

There might be other places where you wonder why we ask the military to cut down trees that have fallen three or four days after a storm, when in fact there are local companies that are better at it and who could use the resources to rebuild the local economy. We're actually taking jobs away from local resiliency by having the armed forces do non-emergency work after the emergency has passed. That's a good question we need to ask ourselves.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Those are great answers, actually. I really appreciate that.

Do you believe that we should be procuring equipment specifically designed for climate emergencies instead of using defence equipment that should be used in another space, in other roles and modes?

Mr. Pogue, you're welcome to jump in as well. I'm sure you have some thoughts on this as well.

[Chris Pogue]

I will only offer that when I was in the military, we used C-130s in search and rescue missions, so I'm familiar with what you refer to. I think Youri's idea of ensuring that we effectively use the existing infrastructure in Canada that's designed to do this as opposed to the military is probably a great balancing act. It creates local jobs. It creates local capacity. That local capacity that works in those local communities understands the community better than someone from outside. I think there's a lot in that suggestion.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes, I think we're seeing that. Again, Coulson is contracting out all over the world. They are actually not doing business in Canada. It's just one of those typical made-in-Canada stories where they are heroes all around the world and then we're not using them in the right way.

Maybe you can speak about stories like that and more of a pan-Canadian effort where the provinces are—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to interrupt that story. Maybe you can get to it in the next round.

Mrs. Kusie, you have five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here with us.

Mr. Cormier, can you please make it clear on the record whether your organization gets any funding from the government?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

We don't have any permanent forms of funding with the Canadian government, but we do apply for a variety of grants through the MINDS program with DND. They are competitive grants open to the Canadian public. We have applied for them and have obtained them quite regularly in the past few years. I think we currently hold three grants that we're doing research work on.

The other place where we occasionally get funding is when we host events. Canadian government employees have a tendency to register in great numbers. For the Ottawa Conference on Security and Defence, I believe that in the past two years we've had 20 different government departments present. We do sell tickets to the government.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In your opinion, Mr. Cormier, what do you think the reasons are for the current delay in signing the F‑35 contract? Why do you think that signing this contract is being delayed?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I'm not privy to what exactly is going on behind the scenes, but I will say—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What do you think is going on?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I'm not going to go too far down the speculative—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Oh, please do.

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

Here's what I would say: Any form of delay at this point in the process is, to me, unacceptable.

I say that because there's only one fighter left. We already read the entire ITB proposition. The value proposition has been studied in the previous phases and it's been agreed to. At this point, we should be going straight to contract. It's missed opportunities to just cut to the chase.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes, indeed.

My colleague, Mrs. Block, indicated that she had been on this committee previously. This is my first time on this committee, but I feel as though this subject has been around since the first Top Gun movie.

As a former diplomat, I have a lot of interest in your comments and responses to my colleague, Mrs. Block. I wanted to expand upon them a little further. You said, “The F‑35 cannot come soon enough, as the war in Ukraine has demonstrated the dangers of hypersonic weapons and suicide drones.”

Perhaps you can explain to the committee what we have been deprived of in terms of capability by not currently having the F‑35 and therefore not having this technology and the comparative capability to share with other nations to defend democracy versus Russia or China.

What have we been deprived of and what could we have contributed had we had this capability?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

Part of it goes back to what I was saying a while ago where the relationship with our allies is harmed by the fact that we're not paying for the deterrent umbrella that they are providing Canada right now. That's a big part of the equation.

The other example would be if there were a situation right now that demanded immediate action to enforce a no-fly zone somewhere on the planet. If there was an emergency and Canada was to send the equipment and capabilities we currently have, we might wind up in a situation where we're not providing the right level of cover. Civilians could be killed in the process. Canadian Armed Forces members could be killed in the process.

We're not as equipped as we would want to be if it were necessary to have this no-fly zone created.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

As well, I appreciate your reference to our historic contributions to peacekeeping. As I mentioned, I was at foreign affairs at 125 Sussex. I always enjoyed going past Pearson; the bus stand is metal. It is something very significant for this nation that we have lost.

In your opinion, do you feel there could be further delays in the F‑35 purchase?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I don't think there's any reason for further delays. I expect that the next phase could go very quickly if there is a will to actually get to that place.

I'm just happy that the decision was made. I think it's a really good place where we have to be. Once this decision is made, I think there is....

The reality is that the Canadian Armed Forces have been depleting their capabilities for 20 years now or perhaps more. We haven't capitalized adequately on the Canadian Armed Forces. There are currently holes throughout the entire enterprise.

Now that we've done the F‑35, I don't think we should keep harping on it. I think we should quickly get it over with and start thinking about what other elements and capabilities the Canadian Armed Forces need now. Let's move to those and then create that tendency to move fast on them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Cormier.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

My first question is for Mr. Pogue.

Can you please share how the current project management style helps your company gain successful business contracts with the private sector and government?

[Chris Pogue]

As I noted earlier, the project management style we deploy reaches out to all stakeholders. We focus on the engagements we get with the military, when they have open forums of what sort of requirements they have and what sort of expectations they have for the future. We respond to requests for information. We respond to multiple requests for proposals. It's all part of the engagement.

Once we're in a contract, we manage it very closely with the customer and the additional stakeholders—sometimes there are industrial technical benefits involved—all as part of an end-to-end, comprehensive way of treating the delivery of capability to the men and women who serve.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

On September 8, Thales announced its intention to expand its North American presence, having hired up to 1,000 new employees and with the intent of hiring 300 more. How many of these jobs will end up in Canada?

[Chris Pogue]

It's hard to speculate on exactly how many jobs will end up in Canada. I think what you're seeing in that announcement is Thales's significant commitment and investment in the digital transformation we're seeing across the commercial sector and across many militaries. Thales is very well positioned with previous acquisitions to deliver promising results around digital transformation.

The other place that's seeing significant growth is the use of augmented intelligence to help effectively deal with the large data problems and make more effective decisions.

Those are areas in which I see us increasing the number of people who are part of the Thales family. Those programs exist in Canada, too, so there's certainly an opportunity to expand upon the presence we have in Canada as those programs come to fruition.