Government Operations Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Is that all across Canada, or based more in specific regions within Canada?

[Chris Pogue]

Due to the nature of the way we service the military customer, it would be all across Canada, because we are serving from coast to coast to coast in some respects. In some cases, when it's the digital capability and growth around commercial and banking services, it will tend to be more province by province.

It depends on what particular domain we're talking about.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

What's your position on Canada's decision to pursue the negotiations with Lockheed Martin to purchase the F-35?

[Chris Pogue]

To Youri's point earlier, there was a competition and an exercise, and they've made a decision based on what they believe Canada's requirements are. Now it's time to move forward and deliver the capability.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Cormier, to what extent can industry predict government procurement needs without annual updates to defence investment plans?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I find the best way to create that flow of information is to continually have conversations between academia, the business sector, the Canadian Armed Forces and parliamentarians. At the Conference of Defence Associations, we try to create these fora where these conversations can happen. A lot of the security gaps need to be known in order for innovation to deal with them, but I think it works both ways.

I think capabilities are determined by what kind of technology is out there, so the more we get conversations going, the better.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

I have one more question for Mr. Pogue.

When it comes to diversity, how is Thales working to promote diversity within its business?

[Chris Pogue]

We're very proud of the inclusion and diversity initiatives, from our CEO down. It is a metric that we measure. We have all signed on to a commitment to those programs. While there's not a one-size-fits-all diversity and inclusion policy, we are deploying it as best we can in all the regions we operate.

I think the commitment and that effort will make a difference in the long term. We're very proud of what we're trying to do.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about 30 seconds, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you to our witnesses. Those are all the questions I have for today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes, and then Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, and then we're going to break to set up for the next round.

Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. Pogue and Mr. Cormier.

Investing in air defence, whether it be aircraft or radar systems, is important. Can you please talk to us about the impact of these investments, not only for the businesses involved, but for the entire sector, i.e. research, universities, industry stakeholders. If applicable, please tell us about any social benefits.

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

First of all, you should know that whenever I go to Mirabel and to Montreal, I am reminded how much the aviation industry really is a jewel in Quebec's crown.

The procurement system is set up in such a way that research is encouraged and the amount of research done for a project adds quite a bit of value to the bid. I think that these are factors that, put together, can really be advantageous to Canada and to Quebec as a society.

However, we also have to remember that the process needs to be an uninterrupted one. You can't let 10 years go by between each procurement project. Quebec aviation businesses need to be constantly working in order to avoid expansion and contraction or boom-and-bust cycles.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Pogue, what do you think?

[Chris Pogue]

Maybe I'll simply pick up on the boom-and-bust concept.

I think these large-scale programs create a unique opportunity to develop the next generation of engineers. These engineers will work on those programs and have staff to work with them, and they'll go on to other things. Those other things might be their own companies.

That ecosystem that we build avoids that boom-and-bust cycle because they'll move into export markets, or they'll do different things. Particularly, some of the investment that's coming to Canada, the $40 million I referred to earlier in R and D, in augmented intelligence, in quantum computing, things we're directly investing in that are part of that next generation of programs.... Those things will be done by Canadians in Canada, and they will reach a global market from Canada.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

I have another question for both of you, but you may have to provide your answers in writing, given that I only have two and a half minutes left.

My question has two parts to it.

First of all, how can we improve the procurement process?

Secondly, is there a procurement process that could serve as a model or an example, one that we could adapt to meet our needs, where applicable, if that hasn't been done so already?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid, gentlemen, that I'm going to have to interrupt because we're at two and a half minutes, but if you could provide it in writing—

[Chris Pogue]

I would be happy to provide it in writing. The work we're seeing with the relational contract under AJISS, I think, is really a promising milestone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think Thales, being around the world, certainly could share with us who perhaps is doing it better.

Thanks very much.

Mr. Johns, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'll ask both of you this.

Mr. Cormier, I'll start with you.

Do you believe that Canada should have a single organization responsible for procurement? If so, which organization do you think it should be?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

Similar to what I said a while ago, it's not so much how many procurement organizations there are; it's how well they work together. Whether there are four or one, it depends on what kinds of powers you give them and what kinds of resources you give them to make sure the processes go quickly and effectively.

I think that right now we tend to go towards the fact that there is duplication or that there might be inefficiencies built into the four-group model, but that could be resolved within this model or within another model. It's a question of creating that political oversight, giving a little bit of room to breathe to some of these public servants who are risk averse because they feel that they need to be risk averse. There are a variety of solutions going forward, and I'm not going to suggest that there's one that's better than the others.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Pogue, you talked a little about diversity earlier. I'd love to hear more about your company in terms of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and call to action 92, where it's very explicit, calling for “meaningful consultation, building respectful relationships,” ensuring “that Aboriginal peoples have equitable access to jobs,” and providing “education for management and staff on the history of Aboriginal peoples”.

Can you speak a little bit about any work that your company is doing in this area and maybe some areas that you need to improve and work on?

[Chris Pogue]

I would say that, inevitably, there are always going to be areas that you can improve and work on.

An area where we are actively engaged is with the indigenous community in Canada to help them be part of the defence system.

The synergy program I referred to earlier is for small and medium-sized businesses. It can engage with them and help them cross that chasm into global markets. As we see expanding our footprint in Canada, we fully expect it will be done in concert with the indigenous peoples to the point where I can imagine a day in the future when our chief engineer is from that community and he or she grew up working in Thales programs.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Have you read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action?