Government Operations Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[Erin O'Gorman]

I can begin to respond on behalf of Canada Border Services Agency, the client of Public Services and Procurement Canada in this matter. I will provide the background, and let my colleagues speak to the process in detail.

At the time, the situation was pressing and the Public Health Agency of Canada had an urgent need. So we asked three companies if they could help us and create an application in a month. Two companies responded. We didn't have the expertise or the time to put it out to bid in March 2020. We ended up doing it later with help from the department.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm surprised that barely one or two companies responded that they could do it in a month, as opposed to companies that specialize in the field. From what I hear, it was quicker to use a company that had to recruit people rather than a company that already had specialized people on staff.

I have a hard time getting my head around how a company made up of two individuals, who have to look for specialized people and hire them to think about the issue and design an application, is able to do it faster than a company that already has the people and the expertise. I don't see how that's possible.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I mentioned two companies. However, one of the two companies came to us with the model that provided information security without using the Canada Border Services Agency cloud. Since we wanted to use that cloud, we felt that was not the best choice.

Under the terms of their contract, the other company had people with the expertise to meet our specific needs, and they could make them available to us fairly quickly.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Cormier, another $5.9 million contract awarded to GC Strategies was not released, again for national security reasons.

Which contract is that? What rule or policy specifically prohibits the release of this contract, other than the national security exception? What is so special about this contract that it cannot be released?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give a very short answer, please.

[Ron Cormier]

I believe this is the contract that was awarded on December 18, 2020 for ArriveCAN to meet the accessibility requirements of the Government of Canada. That contract had a value of $5.9 million, and $4.8 million of it was actually committed for work. The contract was covered by a national security exemption that was in place in response to the COVID-19 pandemic and its national security implications for Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.

Mr. Johns, you have five minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Ms. O'Gorman, the national president of the Customs and Immigration Union told this committee that ArriveCAN is “one example in a long line of far-reaching technological band-aid solutions in search of a problem, solutions that ultimately fail to enhance border security and effectiveness in any real way.” He also indicated that the agency is short-staffed by between 2,000 and 3,000 officers, and that 500 officers could have been hired for the same cost as the ArriveCAN app.

Do you think that Canadians received a good value for the $54 million that was spent, or would our borders be under less pressure if more investments were made in staffing?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Mr. Weber vigorously and actively defends the interests of his members, and I observed his comments in that regard.

The money was not ongoing, so we couldn't have hired border officers with that money. Our college was closed. In—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you want to explain what the need is, and maybe you can talk about how far back these staffing issues go?

Mrs. Kusie asked a question about the fall economic statement and the $137 million. Can you speak a little bit about that in connection to my question?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Sure. The number of BSOs at any port of entry will fluctuate depending on travel patterns. Certainly as we come out of the pandemic, we're trying to figure out whether those travel patterns are being re-established.

I don't agree with the number of 2,000 to 3,000. I'm very happy to have the money in the fiscal update. We will be putting that, as I indicated, towards border service officers.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What is the need, and how far back do these staffing issues go? It might be from previous governments and cuts that were made.

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I said, I don't know where the 2,000 to 3,000 comes from.

In terms of modernizing the border, we see a role for technology at the border in order to allow our border service officers to focus on facilitation and enforcement.

We didn't see a decrease in enforcement during the pandemic. In fact, there were twice as many firearms seizures in 2021 as there were in 2020.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I understand that. There are clearly staffing issues, though.

We know that the flow of illegal firearms and contraband is a huge issue right now. Maybe you can talk about what the needs are and what it is going to take to address the staffing issues at CBSA.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Certainly the funding in the recent federal fiscal update will help.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Is that enough?

[Erin O'Gorman]

The agency also received funding specifically for firearms and drugs.

As I said earlier, our modernization agenda is an effort to alleviate some of the more lower-value roles of the border officers, so that they can focus on higher values, higher threats and higher targets.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have a question for PHAC.

How does the cost of ArriveCAN compare to the cost of other apps that Health Canada has developed, such as the COVID Alert app or the PocketWell mental health app?

[Jennifer Lutfallah]

I'll take that question, but I'll turn to Chris to provide additional information.

In terms of the apps that are developed on behalf of PHAC, such as the ArriveCAN app, the investment, as the president of the CBSA has indicated, is $54 million. With respect to the other apps that were developed, those were predominantly led by Health Canada; therefore, we cannot speak to the cost of those apps.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

If the 27 contracts disclosed by the CBSA were sole-sourced, in addition to a sole-sourced contract to KPMG by the Public Health Agency of Canada, given the number of sole-sourced contracts involved in this app and the significant public attention on this issue, would you support a procurement practice review by the office of the procurement ombudsman?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I can take that.

The last two and a half years—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I just want to make sure it is specific to the review. I'm asking about the review.

[Erin O'Gorman]

—have been very unique. We're happy to learn lessons in whatever way we can, including the work that this committee is doing on ArriveCAN. We're quite happy to have any lessons.

The context in which the sole-sourced contracts were let was in the context of an emergency and insufficient time to have a competitive process.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Going back to one of my earlier questions around the initial estimated cost for the app.... To be clear, I'm not asking about what was spent. We've heard that the preliminary development of the app was around $80,000 and that the costs grew over time. I'm trying to find out whether those increases in cost were anticipated and, as the costs grew, was there an analysis done at each stage whether any of the work could be done in-house?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to have to interrupt, because you are right on five minutes, Mr. Johns.

Could you provide that to the committee in writing?

Please remember, everyone—myself included—to lean forward into your mikes for the benefit of our interpreters.

Mr. Barrett, you have five minutes, please.