Government Operations Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[Erin O'Gorman]

Seizing on the “enterprise-wide” comment, this was enterprise-wide. In fact, it was extremely specific, stemming from the Public Health Agency's efforts to try to manage a paper process.

It was in that context that they came to CBSA to ask us to develop the app extremely quickly. It was so quick that we didn't have enough expertise in our workforce to do it. At the same time, the department was trying to manage the border and its employees in the context of the pandemic.

Looking back, with the information we had at the time and the request we had, the posture of the agency was to be as helpful as possible. It used, as my colleague referenced, whatever tools it could to enhance its workforce to be able to deliver on the app.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I really appreciate that, Ms. O'Gorman.

You can understand from the public's perspective that GC Strategies took a cut of $1.3 million, or upward of $2.7 million. We don't know which number it is. Hopefully, you can share that today with this committee, because I think the public deserves to know.

That's a lot of money. I believe that money could be better spent in the public service, hiring people who can do that work. They're not even experts in tech. This is concerning for everybody.

Do you not believe that the Government of Canada should have the in-house capacity in 2022 to develop a mobile app?

[Erin O'Gorman]

First, I'll agree completely. It is a lot of money. It's important to understand how that money was spent. I agree.

At the time, when CBSA was asked to develop the app, it went out to three service providers to receive offers. We simply didn't have the people on staff to allow us to develop the app, as well as to maintain our 180 other IT systems.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You went to the expensive consultants, who hired expensive consultants. This is becoming a pattern. This is the problem. How do we stop that? How do we create that in-house and save taxpayers' money? This is why we're here.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Absolutely—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Ms. O'Gorman, for interrupting you. The time's up already. Again, perhaps Mr. Johns can come back to that in his next round, or you can provide a response in writing.

We'll go to Mrs. Kusie for five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Mills, were any ArriveCAN contractors eligible for bonuses or pay incentives?

[Michael Mills]

Not that I'm aware of. As we mentioned, we have contracts with the firms. What GC Strategies would have in terms of compensation and those mechanisms would be within their own agreements.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, so if bonuses or pay incentives were created, they would have been created within GC Strategies. Thank you for that.

I'm now going to turn to some discrepancies within this sessional paper, which my colleague started to discuss. It was recently reported in a Globe and Mail article that federal outsourcing last year increased by 24%, to $14.6 billion. According to the sessional paper, PHAC sole-sourced a contract to KPMG for $1.08 million, for operations and maintenance, yet this, apparently, at the same time was under the purview of Canada Border Services Agency.

What's the difference between the work that KPMG did and then CBSA, please, Mr. Allison?

[Christopher Allison]

Mr. Chair, I can't speak to the work that KPMG did for CBSA.

For PHAC, we spent approximately $3.9 million, through KPMG, on services provided since fall 2020 for program management support to address gaps or needs such as accessibility, providing operational policy support and managing public health requirements at the border.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Then perhaps Ms. O'Gorman could address that, please, on the difference between the work done by KPMG for $1.08 million, compared to the work done by CBSA.

[Erin O'Gorman]

KPMG performed work for the Public Health Agency and not for CBSA.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay.

It's interesting that PHAC sole-sourced the contract, yet the work was performed for CBSA.

Okay, I'll go on. In the documentation submitted by CBSA, were any contracts listed not publicly posted due to a national security exception, Ms. O'Gorman?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There were.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay. If so, what contracts were covered under this national security exception?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll invite my colleagues from PSPC, as they were responsible for those contracts on CBSA's behalf.

[Ron Cormier]

Sorry, Mr. Chair, but I'm just consulting my notes to see if I have that information.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Perhaps while you're consulting those notes we can go back to Mr. Allison.

I'm going to focus now on advertising contracts for ArriveCAN, awarded to both Cossette communications agency and Banfield Seguin Media, for $19.7 million and $1.2 million, respectively. This information was not disclosed in the initial sessional paper.

Mr. Allison, why would that be, please?

[Jennifer Lutfallah]

Excuse me, I'll be responding.

As I understand it, the request that had been made by the committee did not include promotion, and therefore it was excluded.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, that's very interesting. I think we'll look into that more.

Mr. Allison, do you have the list of the contracts under the national security exception? You do not as yet have that. Perhaps you could table them with this committee for us to review at a later time.

I'm going to go to the fall economic statement. Again, my colleague touched on this. It includes $137 million for CBSA to enhance its frontline capacity and hire additional officers to help alleviate border pressures.

Will any of this new funding go to ArriveCAN, and if so, what would that be for, specifically, please, Ms. O'Gorman?

[Erin O'Gorman]

That funding is for border service officers.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay.

An October 6, 2022, Globe and Mail article citing CBSA officials stated that the department budgeted a further $25 million for work on ArriveCAN and other matters this fiscal year, about half of which has been spent so far. Is this funding for maintenance, as budget 2022 suggests?

[Erin O'Gorman]

It's funding for maintaining ArriveCAN.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Given that the app is no longer mandatory, what are your projections for its use as an advance customs declaration for the remainder of the fiscal year?

I know Mr. Johns touched upon this briefly.

[Erin O'Gorman]

We're rolling out advance declaration first in the air environment, with a view to rolling it out into the land environment next summer. It's with a view to people having a faster border experience when they do voluntarily submit their declaration information ahead of coming into contact at the port of entry.