Government Operations Committee on Nov. 21st, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's time.

Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With the supplementary estimates (B), the Government of Canada has increased spending for 2022‑23 by $19.2 billion, or 4.6%, over 2021‑22. This budget can be roughly divided into three parts: a third for measures in the 2022 budget, a third for reconciliation with indigenous peoples, and a third for new measures authorized by the government outside the usual fiscal approval process of the federal budget and the fall economic statement.

We know that supplementary estimates provide information on spending needs that could not be specified in previous budgets. We also know that supplementary estimates are tabled after the public accounts, which show the unused, lapsed appropriations that departments had been given in previous fiscal years. We see that about one-tenth of the funds provided have not been used. In 2020‑21 and 2021‑22, the amount of unused appropriations more than doubled over previous years.

We understand that the increase in unused appropriations in health is the result of uncertainty and increased spending related to COVID‑19. It was probably safer to vote in more money than not enough, since no one likes to get caught with their pants down in a crisis. However, and here's the rub, no information was provided about appropriations unused by other departments, appropriations unrelated to the pandemic, especially since these explanations should have been included in departmental results reports and the public accounts.

I'm going to ask two questions related to this lengthy introduction.

First, why didn't you explain the reasons for not spending the voted appropriations in the departmental results reports and the public accounts of Canada? In fact, why didn't you force the departments to do it?

Next, how is it that the departments aren't spending the funds allocated to them when, according to government officials, the departments urgently need considerable amounts of funding?

[Mona Fortier]

Before I turn the floor over to officials, who will provide you with more detailed answers, I'd like to thank you for your questions.

Over the past few years, the government has been under a great deal of pressure. Departments want to spend the money that's been allocated to them, but we've seen some challenges related to supply chains and legal issues, among other things. That may be part of the reason why all the information isn't available right now.

I will let Ms. Boudreau answer your questions and provide specific examples.

[Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you very much for your questions, Mrs. Vignola.

The report you were referring to indicates that $12 billion has not been spent in the federal health portfolio. As has been said, this is related to uncertainty arising from COVID‑19.

Another $4.3 billion is for settlements with indigenous peoples, but it's impossible to know when they will be ratified by the communities. So that's part of the reason for the lapsed funds.

A third example is the reprofiling of $5.2 billion related to infrastructure projects. This may be due to delays in completing some projects, because the construction season in the north is so short that it's impossible to finish all projects planned.

Implementation delays are a fourth consideration. Indigenous Services Canada is a good example, because it has not spent all of its allocated funds due to its staff being unable to travel to communities.

The final consideration would be the Treasury Board's central votes, $1.8 billion in total. When these funds go unused, they are lapsed. If they are still needed, then they must be requested from Parliament again.

To sum up, we have $12.1 billion for COVID‑19, $4.3 billion for indigenous peoples, $5.2 billion for delays and infrastructure, $5.5 billion for implementation delays, and $1.8 billion for central votes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In addition, an unprecedented $5.7 billion is being spent on immigration, including $112 million to fund the 2022‑24 immigration levels plan.

How much of that money is earmarked for Roxham Road infrastructure?

[Mona Fortier]

Again, thank you for your question.

I feel that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada would provide a better answer than me. That said, we will send a detailed written response to the committee.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would appreciate it.

The Governor General has been in the news for several months owing to the budgets she's been granted, including $55 million to $67 million for the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General. Money is being spent not only there, but also in several departments.

Is an additional amount provided in this budget for the Governor General's expenses?

[Mona Fortier]

The answer is no.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's your time. Perhaps you can get back to us or revisit it in your next round.

Next is Mr. Johns for six minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, last week Lana Payne, the president of Unifor, Canada's largest private sector union, said that the Governor of the Bank of Canada has basically declared a class war on working people in this country. The governor has advised employers to suppress wages, and is pushing for a rise in unemployment to slow inflation.

Collective bargaining with several bargaining units is continuing against this backdrop, while public service workers have delivered for Canadians throughout the pandemic. In the face of high inflation and uncertain economic times ahead, they're looking for wages that will allow them to make ends meet and for job security.

As a major employer, the federal government sets an example for employers right across the country. Now, at the bargaining table, the question for you is whether you will be taking the advice of Mr. Macklem and suppressing wages, or whether you will be offering workers a fair deal.

[Mona Fortier]

Our government is committed to reaching agreements with all bargaining agents that are fair to the employees, and we are mindful of today's economic and fiscal context. Of course you know that we bargain at the table, not in public, but, just to make sure that we're all on the same page, our offers take into account other collective agreements in the country, our ability to attract and retain highly qualified employees, the terms and conditions of employment in other workplaces and responsible fiscal management.

We will, of course, make sure that there is fairness for the employees and also for taxpayers.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

We want to make sure that those employees can pay their bills and that it meets the rate of inflation.

The supplementary estimates (B) propose a transfer of $235,000 from the National Research Council of Canada to the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat “to support the implementation of a Buy Clean Secretariat for federal procurement.” The development of a buy clean strategy appeared in the mandate letters of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, but not in the mandate of the Treasury Board president.

Despite the strategy being tasked by three ministers, there haven't been obvious signs of progress. The buy clean strategy has broad support from industry, labour and the environmental community as a way of reducing emissions and generating economic benefits at home.

Can you please explain what the Treasury Board's role in developing the strategy will be and how $235,000 will move this forward in a timely way?

[Mona Fortier]

Mr. Johns, before I turn it to Sam to define the $235,000, I have to tell you that I have the privilege in my mandate of working on greening government and making sure that we reduce our footprint across the country with our infrastructure and with our vehicles.

I would like to present to you the plan that we currently have with the centre for greening government and my team when you have a chance. We are reducing our footprint right now, and we will continue to do so.

I will ask Sam if she can give precision on the exact amount that you were sharing.

[Samantha Tattersall, Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Within Treasury Board Secretariat, there is a greening government secretariat that's about greening federal operations. The transfer from the NRC to Treasury Board is for two full-time persons who will support the development and implementation of green procurement standards and support guidance on low embodied carbon materials like carbon and steel that we use during the construction of our buildings, etc. It's about greening government—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Minister, your colleague, the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, said in September that the government is moving towards a regulated safer supply of drugs in response to the toxic drug crisis. However, to date, the government has only supported small-scale pilot projects while thousands of Canadians die every year, including in your riding, because of the contaminated supply. Now the Conservative leader is spreading misinformation that safe supply is a failed experiment.

The substance use and addiction program is significantly oversubscribed. I just found out, on a question on the Order Paper, that the first call for proposals was able to provide funding only for 11.8% of what was sought, while the second call for proposals provided 17% of the funding sought. That funding goes to a range of programs related to not just safer supply, but also prevention, harm reduction and treatment.

In light of the funding shortfall, has the Minister of Health sought from you any additional funding to support safer supply programs?

[Mona Fortier]

Toxic drug and overdose crises continue to take a tragic toll on the families and loved ones in our communities, even, as you mentioned, in my riding of Ottawa—Vanier. Our government is using and will continue to use every tool at our disposal to work with our partners to that end.

For this national public health crisis, as you know, since 2017 our government has invested more than $800 million to address the overdose crisis, and we're continuing to take concrete steps to divert people who use drugs away from the criminal justice system—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's not answering the question, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's time as well. Perhaps you can come back to it in the next round.

Mrs. Kusie, you have five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm not sure who defines misinformation, but I'll continue.

Minister, we're both working mothers, and we're both very proud to be. As we ease out of the pandemic, we are still seeing the implementation of the hybrid model within the federal public service, something that I'm not necessarily opposed to. I'm wondering about the effects of vacancy rates as a result of individuals working at home.

Would you have an idea as to what the current vacancy rates are for buildings in the national capital region at this time as a result of this, please?

[Mona Fortier]

As you can imagine, our public service is no longer working remotely out of necessity but in a hybrid-by-design approach. With the departments, we are monitoring how we will continue to deliver services to Canadians. To do so, we are, of course, looking at how public servants can better offer those services. Hybrid work is something that is here to stay.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, I was asking specifically about the vacancy rates and if you're aware what they might be. Then I was going to ask a follow-up question as to the operating costs on a daily basis for the buildings in the national capital region so that perhaps we could ascertain—based upon vacancy rates and the operating costs—whether, perhaps, this amount of money could be better utilized by evaluating these working spaces.

I'll go back, then, to employees, since we were talking about the type of work currently being done in the federal public service. I'm sure you saw the story—as reported by Kevin Page, our previous Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is now at the University of Ottawa—indicating that 19,151 new jobs were added last year. This, of course, means that the public sector is growing faster than the private sector. However, the results that Canadians are getting really aren't indicating the benefit of having hired so many individuals.

For example, ESDC added 8,500 new positions but saw disastrous record highs for passport delays, delaying thousands of Canadian travellers this summer. Of course, everyone knows about Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. It hired 1,750 new people in July, yet it had more than two million applications in its backlog. This is prior to the new 500,000-individual target being set.

I'm wondering, Minister, how the Treasury Board will consider value for money going forward, given that there's been an incredible investment in the public service—greater than that of the private sector—yet we're still not seeing the results. What are you going to do about that?

[Mona Fortier]

Well, there are many questions in your statement right now, but I'll start by saying one thing. The federal public service is about 0.84% of the population, the same as it was in 2010 under the Harper government. At this time, if we look at it, it's about the same proportion.

Our government is really focusing on delivering support for Canadians who need it most while responsibly managing public funds. New, vital services like CERB and CEWS were clearly things that Canadians appreciated and that helped them go through COVID. For that, we needed public servants to quickly adapt those programs and offer them to Canadians.

Also, we have to say that our government is continuing to look at how we can better offer our services. We have reduced the backlog for the passport issue that we had this summer. Yes, we had to find innovative ways to offer the services that Canadians rely on. With regard to passports, for example, we opened new offices across the country, even one in the Yukon, in Whitehorse.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, my time is brief, so I'm just going to move on, then, to some other questions of waste.

For example, according to an article by Laura Ryckewaert, “The federal government wracked up a total of $227.1 million in lost revenue, public money, and public property due to fraud, accidents, or offences in 2021-22”. What are you doing to address these lost revenues, public monies and public property losses due to fraud, accidents or offences in the last fiscal year, Minister, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to interrupt again. That seems to be my habit in this meeting.

We are out of time. Perhaps this is for our next time.

Mr. Bains, we'll go over to you for five minutes, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister for joining us today and providing these answers, and thank you to the Treasury Board Secretariat.

In the region I come from, which is Richmond, British Columbia, our coastline is very important to my constituents. We have the largest commercial fishing harbour in Canada. We also have the Ocean Legacy program here, which is the only one of its kind: Plastics are removed from the ocean and turned into little plastic beads that go back into the circular economy.

My question is about the recent oceans protection plan announcement, which I participated in just the other day, for the next phase of oceans protection plan funding. Can you speak to the $196.3 million allocated for the oceans protection program in the estimates and how it will protect our coastlines?