Government Operations Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[John Ossowski]

I really have no comment on the margins. I can simply say that it's really important for us to have these relationships with industry because they have unique capacity to come in very quickly and help us solve problems in an agile manner. Because of that, you pay a premium for it, but I really have no assessment of what's an appropriate amount or not.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We heard from the national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, and they said the frontline workers weren't even consulted about the app. They're dealing with the app day in and day out.

Can you speak about...? Their frustration is valid.

[John Ossowski]

I would simply say for sure, at the very beginning....

I'll remind you once again that it was the Public Health Agency's app. They were the business owner. The union doesn't work for them; it works for us.

In a normal circumstance, the union would be consulted. I had regular meetings with Mr. Weber throughout my tenure, and with his predecessor, Monsieur Fortin. We talked about the app all the time. We got feedback from officers and we did make improvements as time went along, but these weren't normal times.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's basically your time, Mr. Johns.

We'll now have Mr. Barrett for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Could the app have been made for less?

[John Ossowski]

Than what? The first version of the app, or...?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Could the version that we have today have been made for less money?

[John Ossowski]

I think when you look at the complexity of the back-end systems, the regression testing, the work that was put into it, the call centres, the costs that have all been conveyed to you by the department and produced as evidence, you might be able to squeeze out a little bit more, for sure, and I think there are lessons learned. If we were to look back at it, I'm sure there might be some stuff that the department would be willing to hear about as we go forward, but these technologies, as I said, are critical for the future for us.

If there are lessons learned from your study, they would be more than happy to receive them. I think President O'Gorman said the same.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is there anything you would have done differently?

[John Ossowski]

It's hard to say, because I was there at the time. I would say—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You have the benefit of hindsight now.

[John Ossowski]

With the benefit of hindsight, I would say that we were moving very quickly. With the orders in council, as those requirements were being established, almost in real time we were having to reimagine the application and how we were going to recode it. I really feel for my team, which had to put in incredibly long hours to put this together. I know even in Mr. Manji's blog he talked about this and how it would take weeks to get approved by the app store. It took us days, maybe a week at most, for the app store to approve our version of the app. We were very good at this, but it was incredibly stressful for the team.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Are you aware of any Treasury Board policies having been contravened during this—

[John Ossowski]

Absolutely not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

—program?

Thank you.

What was the role of your minister in the contract management?

[John Ossowski]

Zero.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With respect to due diligence, did you ever ask if the requirements from the other agencies—for instance, the Public Health Agency of Canada—were necessary?

[John Ossowski]

We met with them regularly to talk about the requirements and what was actually doable at the border. As I mentioned, we administer 100 other pieces of legislation and regulation at the border, and we have an on-the-ground understanding of how the throughput at airports and ports of entry works and how to do things like mandatory random testing and/or PCR testing or whatever it is. The synergy that we had in discussing these things was a daily conversation with the Public Health Agency.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Are you able to tell us what funding envelope was used to pay the GC Strategies contractor?

[John Ossowski]

I would refer you to the department for that information.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you have delegated authority to approve any of the contracts on this project from the minister?

[John Ossowski]

I wasn't required to sign off anything on these contracts.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay. Who would have signed off on them?

[John Ossowski]

Normally, the procurements are delegated down to at least the vice-president or the director general level, but the CFO and his team would be involved in procurements.