Government Operations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I guess I still didn't get to the point about what the bar is, but I'm hoping you'll explain that.

Minister—

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Mr. Johns, I think the deputy can say exactly what the bar is now to exclude a company.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

[Paul Thompson]

As I was indicating, the bar for an affiliate of a Canadian company is a conviction. There are some activities that we can pursue. If it is the direct activity of a Canadian direct supplier, a charge against a company would also be a trigger for an integrity action—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think sometimes a lawsuit of this magnitude should be considered. I think it should be reviewed.

I know there are many aspects of contracting out. Problems arise with an overreliance on this approach. We're seeing that clearly right now. It's high cost. There's a lack of competition. We all remember Phoenix and the sole-source contracts that ended up costing hundreds of millions of dollars and demoralized the public service. We also saw the cuts under the Conservatives that happened to the public service and we saw outsourcing increase. We know that it hurts morale.

What are you going to do to turn around the morale in the public service, Minister? They are not very happy right now, seeing what's going on.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

That's a very big question, and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about 30 seconds to answer.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I'm sure, as a government, we have said many times that we value public officials and the contribution they make. We know that they work hard. We know that they're doing what they are supposed to be doing through their employment.

I have every confidence that the public service within PSPC is going to do everything they can to ensure we have good morale and that people know they are achieving what they need to achieve.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

When? When is that going to happen? This runaway ship is not.... It's not going to happen from the way things are going.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I would have to disagree with you. I think that the people I have met within PSPC are totally dedicated to their jobs. They understand the importance of their jobs and that we, as the government, value their contribution.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you think public servants are happy with the runaway ship? I don't think so. I disagree with you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's our time. I let you go a bit longer. Minister, I let you go longer as well.

Mr. Barrett, you have five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Minister, were you aware of the ethical record of McKinsey? Have you become aware, since taking on this role as minister, that they held a corporate retreat adjacent to a concentration camp?

Our parliament recognized that there is a genocide happening there. They held a retreat next to one of the concentration camps. This same company is embroiled in a corruption scandal in South Africa and in an election interference scandal in France. This same company paid out $600 million U.S.—almost $800 million Canadian—as bonuses to pharmacists, when there were opioid deaths when they overprescribed drugs like OxyContin.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

No, I was not aware, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

When did you become aware of McKinsey's involvement and their payment of that settlement?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

It was through the testimony at this committee last week.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay. Since that time, have you taken any action to end the Government of Canada's business with that company?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

As we already discussed, I have discussed with staff, the deputy, that we need to look very closely at our integrity regime.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

No, no, Minister; looking closely is not going to cut it. This is a company that is devoid of values and is completely antithetical to everything this country stands for.

Do you feel that you have a moral obligation to end the Government of Canada's business with this company, based on what you have heard at this committee?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I need to investigate the matter further and be sure of the facts.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If you were assured that McKinsey, in their work for Purdue Pharma, advised them on how to supercharge the sales of opioids, would that be sufficient for you to end the business of the Government of Canada with McKinsey?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I believe in very thorough investigations of all charges. I'm certainly not in a position to advocate ending any type of contract with McKinsey at this time.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, I think that would be very disappointing for the victims of the work of this company to hear.

Do you think it is appropriate corporate conduct for a company like McKinsey to hold a corporate retreat adjacent to a concentration camp? Do you think that's appropriate?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I just heard this from you right now.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Having heard it, do you believe that to be appropriate?