Government Operations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

To follow up on Mr. Barrett's comment, we could certainly adjourn debate on this study and then reintroduce it at a more appropriate time, but I'll leave it up to you.

I'll go to Mr. Jowhari after you respond, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I really appreciate hearing that my other colleagues in the opposition are supportive of examining the other companies in the $100-million-plus elite club of procurement. I am happy to come back at the next meeting with a revised motion that could gain support from my colleagues. It would allow us to finish the McKinsey study and then look at the other five companies that are getting $100 million-plus in consulting fees from the government, if that makes sense for my colleagues here. I want to make it work.

Obviously I want to get to the bottom of the trough, see what's going on here, get an idea of what exactly is being done, and make good recommendations to the minister so that we can fix this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Perhaps it would give the government time to actually Google some of these corporation names, with the word “corruption” beside them.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm sure we're going to be able to get to the bottom of a lot of things, hopefully, in examining that. I am open to coming back with a revision in terms of allowing McKinsey to stand alone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I definitely agree with both colleagues. Not only do we have to look at the numbers, the amount of money we are spending on consulting fees and outsourcing, but we need to keep the focus of this study on McKinsey. Let's not dilute the study.

When our colleague Mr. Johns is going to prepare the revision, I would like to suggest that he may want to consider actually looking at the scope of the outsourcing we are doing and include all the witnesses from the firms we want to hear from regarding outsourcing. The scope is broad enough to include all those firms appearing.

The policies around outsourcing give us an opportunity to ask the fundamental question of “why?”. What has driven the need for us a manifold increase in outsourcing during 2021-22? What drove that?

The scope of outsourcing, which is already one study in our books, would be a great place for us to ensure this fits into that. We can add outsourcing witnesses and get it done. That study is already approved. I believe this is a study that will be running concurrently with diversity in procurement, had we not been engaging on McKinsey.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you want to respond to that, Mr. Johns?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm happy to come back with a motion to expand looking at those companies. I will certainly consider the feedback from my colleagues here.

Everybody knows that I'm very much in support of the outsourcing study, and certainly I would like to see it expanded in order to spend more time on that study. Initially I was very concerned about the number of meetings we were going to have around that. Given the circumstances, I'm glad to see the enthusiasm here today regarding the idea of having many more meetings to look at this in a more in-depth study.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Chair, I move that we adjourn debate on Mr. Johns' motion, because he's indicated he'd like to come back with a motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

There is a motion to adjourn the debate on this motion.

(Motion agreed to)

Mr. Johns, can we consider that as your six-minute intervention?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful. Thanks.

Ms. Lewis, because of that, we're very short of time. We're going to go with two and a half minutes and then two and a half minutes, and that will finish the day.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Cory, are you aware that last May, the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities recommended that the Government of Canada abolish the Infrastructure Bank? Are you aware of that?

[Ehren Cory]

I am.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Okay.

Despite paying McKinsey $1.43 million in consulting fees, the Infrastructure Bank has not completed even one single project. Clearly, McKinsey did not do a good job and Canadians did not get their money's worth with the $1.43 million. Would you agree with that?

[Ehren Cory]

I would not. I would say we have made significant progress in the two years since I have joined the CIB.

The testimony for the transportation committee happened in March 2021, just after I joined. That was nearly two years ago. Since that time, we have made real progress in getting infrastructure built in this country.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Cory, have you completed...? Has one project reached financial close?

[Ehren Cory]

Yes.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Which project has the Infrastructure Bank completed, Mr. Cory?

[Ehren Cory]

To answer your question, 27 projects have reached financial close. That means there is a credit agreement, and we are lending them money. Of those, 19 are in active construction, so there are shovels in the ground and concrete is being laid.

There are new buses on the road in Edmonton. Those have been purchased and are running. There is irrigation piping being laid in Alberta. There is new fibre optic cable being—

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Right. You have funded those, but there is no project that has been completed, that you can say you have completely finished and that has been successful.

Isn't that correct, Mr. Cory? There is not one project.

[Ehren Cory]

Infrastructure projects, by their definition, take time to engineer, design and build. I think the typical timeline one would see for a large infrastructure project is in the range of four to five years. The CIB has only existed for five years.

In the REM project, which is our first investment, trains will be running later in the year. As I say, many other projects are deep into construction. However, as I mentioned in our statistics, of the 43 projects we have done, 42 of them are in the last two years, so it is absolutely fair to say that the construction is still under way on those projects.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Do you know how many former McKinsey clients got money from the Infrastructure Bank?