Government Operations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I think we need to look at it very closely, Mr. Johns.

I actually agree with the preamble to your question. I think we need to look at it very, very closely. I think we need to look at whom we're hiring and where there are opportunities to ensure that we have sufficient internal staff with the qualifications and skills that we need to perform the tasks in front of us. I would come at this question very much from the same place as you're coming from.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I get it when it comes to surge, but it feels like it's a surge all the time when you have a tenfold increase of outsourcing to these big companies.

I'll speak about big companies a little bit.

We know there are thousands of skids in the national emergency strategic stockpile that are ready to expire soon. When it comes to resupplying the stockpile, is PSPC going to sole-source the tenders to these billionaire multinationals or are they actually going to give small and medium-sized Canadian companies the chance to bid on the replacement of these supplies?

In the House in 2021, a unanimous consent motion was passed to provide Canadian-made PPE to Parliament and federal government departments. A year later, the foreign-made PPE is still being supplied to the government. Why hasn't this motion been honoured? What are you going to do to intend that SMEs get a share of that?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Mr. Deputy, would you comment?

[Paul Thompson]

I would note, Mr. Chair, that since the onset of the pandemic, there have been significant strides in Canadian-produced PPE, and the volume has shifted considerably towards Canadian suppliers.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Most of the suppliers we're talking to are saying they're still sitting on it.

To go back to the conviction part, you also said that a conviction disqualifies affiliate companies from working with the government and that a charge disqualifies suppliers. McKinsey has been charged criminally in South Africa. That's my understanding.

Why is the bar higher for suppliers than for affiliates? It sounds like McKinsey would be disqualified if they were a supplier instead of an affiliate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I am afraid that's our time—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Maybe you can provide that answer in writing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Perhaps you can provide that answer in writing for that specific question.

Thanks, Mr. Johns.

We'll go to Mr. Barrett for five minutes and then we'll finish up with Mr. Jowhari for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Regarding your response to Mr. Johns, why is the threshold different?

[Paul Thompson]

The policy regime does have two levels. One is for domestic direct suppliers—the corporate entity with whom we're doing business—and one is for affiliates.

These aren't about automatic ineligibility. The thresholds that I was talking about are what trigger a review of the process. Then it can result in suspension. It can result in administrative agreements. There are various arrangements that can be pursued under the existing policy, but as the minister noted, the existing policy is being looked at and there are a range of improvements on the table.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

There's an email that's been received by this committee. It's dated March 26, 2020. It's from Kevin d'Entremont at McKinsey to a department official. It is pitching a meeting on COVID response with Mr. Andrew Pickersgill. Did that meeting happen?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I would have to turn to my officials to see what they know about the issue you're talking about.

[Paul Thompson]

I'm not aware of that particular meeting, but I would say that as part of the government's call to action, there was a very high volume of outreach to companies of all descriptions during that period.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If the meeting occurred, would a record exist?

[Paul Thompson]

I would have to look into that. It would likely be on the record, but I can't confirm that on the spot.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

Through the chair, it's a very narrow event for which we're looking for information. The date and the names have been provided. I'm looking to find out—and wonder if you would undertake to provide this to the committee—if that did occur, who was at the meeting and how many other times those individuals met with Mr. d'Entremont or Mr. Pickersgill.

If you're willing to undertake to provide the results of that very narrow search request to the committee, I think it would be very helpful, because questions were raised in media reporting today with respect to whether this organization, McKinsey, should have been registered to lobby. It's not on designated public office-holders to get individuals to register to lobby; it's on the lobbyists to register.

I think that information would be very helpful. It would expedite the process of getting that information if you provided it to this committee. That would be in the domain where the Commissioner of Lobbying would also have access to that information—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me interrupt, Mr. Barrett. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you're asking if it's the will of the committee to ask the minister's office and Mr. Thompson to provide that to the committee.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It is, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Are there any objections?

There are none. Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Paul Thompson]

I'm just going to make a point of clarification. The department is not the repository for the lobbying registry.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I appreciate that.

[Paul Thompson]

Those registrations are done by the individual, who has the obligation with the office of the registrar.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, one hundred per cent, but for the information with respect to those meetings, a record would exist with your department if it happened.

[Paul Thompson]

We are occasionally asked by the Commissioner of Lobbying to validate and check on that kind of information, so if it's in that context....

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Great. I appreciate that.

The email I referenced mentions Dominic Barton. They name-drop him. Does that name have currency among departmental officials, or with you, Minister, or with your cabinet colleagues?