Government Operations Committee on Feb. 8th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me interject quickly.

I have stopped the clock, but it is not a point of order. It is the member's time. However you or any other party wishes to maintain their time, that is their right.

Please go ahead, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, it's a yes-or-no question. Is McKinsey an ethical company, in your view?

[Mona Fortier]

My answer sticks to the fact that, in 2015, the previous government brought forward an integrity regime. I believe that gives us the tool to make sure that we have businesses that can function with—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right, but let's assess the company. That will help us understand if the integrity regime is working properly or not, because it's not just about whether it fits within the rules—

[Mona Fortier]

My responsibility as President of the Treasury—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—it's about objectively....

Put aside the legalese, Minister. In your view, is this company an ethical company?

[Mona Fortier]

As the President of the Treasury Board, I bring forward the directive on procurement management—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

As a human being, do you think the company that advised Purdue Pharma on how to turbocharge the opioid crisis is an ethical company or not?

[Mona Fortier]

As the President—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

As a human being, do you believe that?

[Mona Fortier]

As the President of the Treasury Board, I have the responsibility for having the right and rigorous procurement processes in place for the Government of Canada.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Why can't you just say yes or no? If you think it is an ethical company, say “yes”. If you think it isn't, say “no”.

Is McKinsey an ethical company?

[Mona Fortier]

As I am answering the question, my answer is the fact that, as President of the Treasury Board, I am responsible for the procurement process and the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did you say yes or no, Minister? Is it an ethical company? Answer yes or no.

[Mona Fortier]

I have answered by saying that we have, since 2015—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think on that, I have to end your time.

Mr. Jowhari, you have five minutes, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your level of professionalism, and thank you to your officials as well.

Minister, for the past hour, all the colleagues have been focusing on getting an understanding of the policies and the scope of the work done by the Treasury Board, which is under your leadership. We've talked about the safeguards. We've talked about outsourcing. We've talked about the strategic direction that the government has taken.

A number of colleagues have talked about how the outsourcing has increased. They're referring back to 2011 and 2022. I had an opportunity to look at these numbers, and I'd like to share what I see. I'd like to have your official thoughts on it.

I see that between 2011 to probably 2013, some of the cuts and austerity measures were starting, especially around essential services, with the previous government. Around 2013 and 2014, the previous government was getting ready for an election. They had hoped for a balanced budget. That didn't happen.

Between 2016 and probably 2019, I see our government coming in with transformative years around some of the policies, specifically around digital government. This is something that was the mandate of the Treasury Board. During 2020 to 2022, we had to change our role from a transformative role into a more supportive one. If you look at some of the cuts to the civil service during the years of 2011 to 2015, this is very much indicative of the austerity measures that the previous government brought in.

You've explained everything, but I believe one thing we could get some insight on is this: What changed between 2011 and 2020 that required that type of resourcing supplement from external consultants?

[Mona Fortier]

Thank you for your important question.

I will say that, since we've formed government, we've had a very ambitious agenda. First, it was to protect the social safety net and make sure we have programs that support all Canadians. We also needed to continue to transform. I might let Catherine Luelo share the digital transformation that we are now, today, pushing forward with and working with the public service on. I would say that this is what we've been doing since 2015. We've been making sure that we bring to Canadians some programs and services that will help grow the economy and make sure that they have good jobs.

One thing that's been on my mind all the time, though, since I've had this mandate is the transformation of our digital government. That is something that is a priority. I also have it in my mandate letter. I'm making sure that we are moving forward. The thing is that we need outsourcing and the public service to complement each other, to make sure that we push our “Digital Ambition” agenda. We need more. It will take some time, but we do have many important projects going on.

I'll let Catherine share the three major ones that we have right now.

[Catherine Luelo]

Thank you, Minister.

To your point, digital ambition really outlines the plan for government. It's available publicly on canada.ca. That will allow us to deliver government in a digital age. Canadians have come to expect that. That accelerated particularly during COVID, and that's not changing. The challenge is that we have systems like old age security that should be on old age security. A big component of this plan is dealing with the technical debt situation that we have in the government.

To the minister's point, we have the program within our Economic and Social Development Canada team, the ESDC, that is replacing our old age security, CPP and EI systems. That is a complex, multi-year—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm going to apologize for interrupting you. I have only 15 seconds left.

Is it fair to say that we are accelerating because we also need to accelerate the services that we are providing to Canadians?

[Catherine Luelo]

Digital is all about service. That's an accurate statement.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, sir.

Mrs. Vignola, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fortier, were you or any of your senior officials ever contacted by representatives of McKinsey and Company?

[Mona Fortier]

No. Nobody from my departmental team was contacted.

As for other staff, I believe Ms. Luelo has had conversations with McKinsey representatives.