Government Operations Committee on Feb. 8th, 2023

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Right.

When was McKinsey awarded the contract?

[Isabelle Hudon]

The contract was signed at the end of August 2021.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

How would you define the term "alumni"?

You often hear this term used in connection with firms like McKinsey.

[Isabelle Hudon]

They are people who remain linked to a brand, an employer, a university or an organization.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

The length of time away from the organization is irrelevant.

Would Ms. Dorval be considered an "alumna"?

[Isabelle Hudon]

I don't think so, but you'd have to ask her.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You had about an extra 15 seconds, Mrs. Vignola.

Mr. Johns, before we go to you, because we finished a bit late at the last meeting, the Bloc and the NDP were cut off at one minute instead of two and a half in the second round. We have the capacity to go a bit longer. Instead of doing three minutes, three minutes, one minute and one minute, do I have the committee's permission to stick with five minutes, five minutes, two and a half minutes and two and a half minutes for the final round?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Go ahead for six minutes, please, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms. Hudon, the media reported that “employment turnover in upper management has spiked”, and that it could have a lot to do with the fact that current and former BDC employees were expressing serious concerns with your decision to outsource the $4.9-million strategic review. They said McKinsey had unrealistic expectations, and that bringing in outside consultants showed a lack of confidence in internal expertise.

The BDC has done similar strategic reviews. Why couldn't this one be done internally? Do you think, for $4.9 million, you could have hired in-house expertise to do that work?

[Isabelle Hudon]

It was well discussed, well thought out and, again, it was not my decision. It was a decision that was taken by the executive team and the board of directors, to bring in external consultants not to develop the strategy but to help, to support and to contribute to the vision.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'll go back to the impact it had on staff. They cited that there were unrealistic expectations, and it lacked confidence in internal expertise.

The employees at BDC also reported that they were alarmed at some of the expenses incurred by the BDC under your leadership. You flew your private chauffeur from Montreal to B.C. at a cost of $12,300 last June and again for $8,100 last October. That's $20,400.

Just so you understand, I live in the farthest riding to the west. I travel back and forth across this country, and it takes me 11 hours to get home—two flights and a long drive. My cost to travel, in the last reported full year of 2018-19, was $25,000. Do you not see a problem with that? You're quoted as saying it was the best value for money. Do you stand by that statement?

I've never, ever incurred a travel cost like that in my seven and a half years as a member of Parliament.

[Isabelle Hudon]

This was a decision that we took for specific reasons at the time. I'm in front of you saying that I hope we will not have to take this decision again, and we will find other options—I promise.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have to be accountable to taxpayers. I believe that employees and leadership in Crown corporations have to do the same. It is prudent.

We had a motion that I brought forward to the committee, and I'm going to move to committee business quickly here, if you don't mind. I brought forward a motion. I talked to everybody. I feel confident that it wouldn't have passed as it stood. Therefore, if I withdraw that motion and present what we talked about, I'm hoping the committee will support that.

Mr. Chair, if you don't mind, could I move that I withdraw the initial motion to expand the study on McKinsey so that we can finish that study?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

On that one, we just need unanimous consent to withdraw it. I assume we do.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

(Motion withdrawn)

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you so much, everybody on the committee.

I move:

That the committee expand its study of the outsourcing of contracts in public services and procurement by increasing the number of meetings in the motion adopted on Wednesday, February 1, 2022, to a minimum of twelve meetings; that the committee invite the most senior executives in Canada from McKinsey & Company, Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Accenture, KPMG, and Ernst & Young; and that the committee invite additional witnesses to provide testimony, provided that the parties each provide their lists of additional witnesses to the clerk of the committee, by 3:00 p.m. EST on Tuesday, February 14, 2023, who the Chair shall schedule in a manner that is fair to all parties.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

What a romantic Valentine's Day you have planned.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We don't have to put that in the motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have Mr. Genuis and then Mr. Jowhari.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, as I understand it, this is a notice of motion. It can't be moved without notice, so it's a notice of motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It can be moved. It's the matter at hand, so I think it is acceptable.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's the matter at hand. I believe what I heard from the committee at the last meeting was that there wasn't going to be an objection to this.