Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[Simon Page]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair. Some very good points were articulated by Ms. Reza.

Maybe on top of that I can give a couple more. We want to treat the requirements in a smart way. One thing that we're really focusing on now is maybe changing the paradigm of how we're delivering equipment. Instead of delivering something that would be spectacular at the beginning, maybe we take a step back and we deliver a good viable capability from the start and then we invest in this capability in the long run. We do that through a different contracting mechanism. We assess, at the moment, that this is an initiative, so to your basic question, there's always room for improvement and defence procurement is no exception.

We're looking at different things and the one I just explained is one where we would maintain a capability through a sustainment lens versus trying to get everything in the early beginning, giving us the agility for the asset to remain relevant in the field for the client departments and the men and women of the CAF and the Coast Guard.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Ms. Thompson.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Reza, if I could start with you, what information can you provide regarding the government's efforts to test the viability of a commercial pay and human resources solution to replace the current pay system, as well as more than 33 human resources systems?

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you very much for the question. I'll start, and then I'll turn the floor to Monsieur Perron.

I think you hit the nail on the head. There are approximately 45 different HR systems that feed Phoenix, so Phoenix has to scrub the data, and understand and build muscle in terms of how each of those systems works. As we move toward an enterprise conduit to feed the Phoenix system, to stabilize it, to reduce the queue, to look at various elements and to work with the unions and the Treasury Board to simplify the collective bargaining rules so that we are putting the right foot forward, we are also looking and working closely with Monsieur Perron on what the NextGen system could do.

Perhaps you could describe this.

[Sony Perron]

Thank you.

Where we are in testing is that NextGen is finishing testing viability this spring. We have a couple of months of work to go. We are doing this with five pilot departments in a simulation. We are doing this with Indigenous Services Canada, Crown-Indigenous Relations, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the Canada economic development agency of Quebec and Canadian Heritage. We are using their complexities and processing them through one of the vendors that was pre-qualified on NextGen to see if we can use a commercial-grade solution to process the pay for the federal government.

Learning out of that is viability and risk of error, but also the changes that we will have to make in the way we operate pay and HR in the government to be able to adopt such a solution. Millions of people are paid by these solutions around the world.

We have to learn what the gap is. It's not the gap in the capacity of these solutions to pay, but the gap in the capacity of the internal operation of government and our payrolls to be able to be processed by such a tool. The idea is to avoid having to own, design and build a tool that is customized to the need, rather than trying to migrate it to a measurement whereby we can leverage these tools that are performing really well in the market.

We should be in a position to conclude the testing validation this year and bring a recommendation about the conditions that change how we manage risk, how we manage a transition and what the imperative of minimizing the risk such a transition would be, so we are getting there.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

If I could swing back to a question I asked the minister.... We ran out of time. It's going back to the supplier diversity program and what your department is doing to build support for indigenous companies so that they can be successful in the contract process.

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you very much for the question.

We are doubling down, both in our supplier diversity and in our indigenous procurement approaches through the Procurement Assistance Canada program. This is a program we run at PSPC with six regional offices, which is open to every SME across Canada.

We're providing concierge services on how to bid, how to compete and how to sign up and find out what notifications exist. There are coaching services, so if you're interested in a bid.... These services are very niche services. They're open to any Canadian SME across Canada. I really hope that, in your own ridings, you will send businesses our way. We're here and we're trying to increase bidder diversity, which is a very important element of it.

The money that we have put aside in the supplementary estimates (C) was a transfer over to Indigenous Services Canada so that they could help build the capacity in those first nation communities and in those first nation organizations to be able to compete, either as a prime or as a sub, or to do some apprenticeship.

We're doing a lot of capacity building. We're trying to get the word out, and we're looking at how we bundle procurements, so the supplier diversity efforts are along these lines. We're also working with Stats Canada data. We can see in certain statistical datasets that there already exists a lot of capacity and expertise that we're trying to tap into by tailoring the RFP documentation to encourage them to compete.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

If I could switch to student loan writeoffs, I know this is something that I can—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about 10 seconds.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Okay. Basically, very quickly, how is that going? Are you seeing significant uptake?

[Arianne Reza]

I think we'll—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We don't have time for a response. You can get back to us.

Ms. Vignola, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

My question is for the Assistant Deputy Minister for Defence and Marine Procurement, Mr. Page.

I want to go back to the framework agreement for Davie Shipbuilding. I'm not going to let it go.

Things are going well and moving along nicely, but are you able to give the committee a specific date when the agreement will be signed, and if not, can you at least give us an approximate timeline?

[Simon Page]

Thank you very much for your question.

Unfortunately, we cannot give a specific date at this time. The minister explained very well earlier where we are in the process. There's not a lot of detail to add. We are really in the final tactical stages of the qualification process.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Is anyone slowing down the process, whether it's the Government of Canada, that of Quebec, Davie Shipbuilding, the public service, or even companies that I would call complementary to Davie, not competitors? Indeed, in a national strategy, I think they are complementary.

Is anyone, anywhere, slowing down the process?

[Simon Page]

Thank you very much for your question.

The answer is no. On the other hand, there are many entities and organizations involved in finalizing the qualification process. So that adds some richness, but also some complexity to the final discussions that need to be had.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Reza, I'm going to go back to French and give you a few moments to quickly answer the two questions I asked earlier.

Is the government aware that by requiring English in deliverables, it is hurting French-speaking businesses by increasing the cost of their bids? In the case of such contracts, why is the Official Languages Act not being enforced?

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you for your question.

Our tenders and procurement plans are all done in both official languages. The services and products we receive for employees or services to Canadians are also in both official languages.

In the case of a report, the client can choose to request it in both languages, which sometimes increases the cost to the government, or in only one language.

With respect to the requirements of the Official Languages Act, I do not know the details. I can only point out again that usually when we buy something that is for employees, it is always in both languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Johns, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I had a question I tried to finish the other day when we had Minister Anand here. I asked her if McKinsey or, I guess, any of the big outsourcing consulting companies had made any recommendations regarding the number of federal public servants versus the number of contract employees. If they did make any recommendations, did they make any around roles and responsibilities of either personnel category? Can you share that with us?

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you very much for the question.

I will respond as a common service provider in terms of the contract administration. I have not seen that come in anywhere in any type of consultation or any type of recommendation.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Is none of the $800 million on professional consultants and external consultants in these supplementary estimates going to be used for consultants to give any recommendations around staffing?

[Arianne Reza]

I cannot tell you that detail. I can give you my knowledge, and my knowledge from within the client department for the McKinsey contract and the pay is that it has not been one of the sets of recommendations.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Outside of McKinsey, are there any consulting companies giving you advice on human resources or on staffing?