Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

In 2003, the Translation Bureau had 1,200 translators and interpreters. According to the numbers I found, it now has about 825. According to the Open Government site, Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, paid $200 million to subcontractors for interpretation.

When do you expect to get back to at least the 2003 number of interpreters and translators, which was 1,200? This is a minimum, since hybrid work is increasing the demand tremendously. I'm talking about interpreters, trained by and for the House of Commons, who meet House standards, who follow the same laws, rules, and specifications of excellence as those who are here now.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

The world has certainly changed since 2003. I think everyone is very well aware that the demand for interpretation services has been fluctuating greatly. We have been doing everything we can to increase and optimize our interpretation capacity while, of course, protecting the health and safety of the interpreters—that's a very important aspect—but the translation bureau has been facing an unprecedented volume of remote interpretation requests.

We are working very hard to work with clients to plan and monitor demand carefully. We have been expanding our pool of accredited interpreters. The translation bureau holds regular accreditation exams. It is open to people who need—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister. That's our time.

Mr. Johns, you have six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here. Thanks to all of the public servants who are here with you, for their important work.

Minister, your department is responsible for operating and maintaining the Phoenix pay system that was brought in by the Conservatives in the government previous to yours and was expected to save $70 million a year. It's turned out that it has cost $2.4 billion and counting in taxpayers' money.

I've heard from many constituents, and I'm sure you have too. They're dedicated public servants who are still waiting for the pay they're owed. Some of them might even be sitting here at the table. In many cases, they're owed thousands of dollars because of this Phoenix disaster and outsourcing chaos, which was a sole-source contract by the Conservatives at the time, as you know.

I'm thinking about Camille in my riding. She has been trying to get the payments owed to her for over five years. My office has been working with her for two years, and still there's nothing. The only response that we're getting is that her file is open and waiting to be assigned to a compensation adviser. That is pretty ironic because Camille, seven years ago, was told she wasn't needed as a compensation adviser, because there was a fancy new payroll system coming in.

Tina in Port Alberni was a dedicated public servant for 30 years. Instead of enjoying her well-deserved retirement, she's still waiting for her missing wages.

People have lost their homes. Alex from my riding has been waiting for months for his severance pay and his final paycheque, and now he's worried about his family. They might end up on the street, because he has fallen behind on his mortgage.

Minister, when will these former public servants and public servants like Alex receive the payments that are owed to them?

What is the immediate plan to fix Phoenix so that thousands of public servants like Alex, Camille and Tina don't continue to suffer financial hardship and extreme distress? As their employer, this government has the ultimate responsibility to them.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Mr. Johns, I totally understand the frustration of some of your constituents, and many government employees through the years, with the situation with Phoenix. Obviously, you've detailed some specific situations, and I assure you that, if we need to facilitate those in particular, I'd be happy to accelerate that.

More generally, I think you are aware we are piloting something called the NextGen system, which is a potential replacement for Phoenix and not only Phoenix as a pay system. It will also combine a number of human resource functions as well. We're taking a very cautious approach with this.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, time is of the essence. These public servants have lost faith that your government is going to fix this, so this needs to be urgent.

Minister, the temporary help services supply arrangement limits the government to just three situations in which they can use temporary workers. They are when a public servant is absent for a temporary period, when additional staff are required during a temporary workload increase or to fill a vacant position while staffing action is being completed.

Those are pretty specific directives, yet the federal government is Canada's largest user of temp agency workers. As procurement minister, you have the responsibility to adhere to the HUMA report of 2018, which recommended that the Canadian government immediately work to stop using temp agency workers and hire permanent public servants. This report came from a Liberal motion, and it was unanimously agreed to.

What are you doing to ensure that departments are adhering to these rules and only using temporary workers in these three situations? How much is the government spending on temporary workers? When was the last time you audited the departments' use of temporary workers?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I will turn to Assistant Deputy Minister Reza for those specific questions.

[Arianne Reza]

We will have to come back in terms of the volume of the temporary help services. I can assure you that they're signed off and attested by the client department's CFO to confirm that the need is short term and that it's really very precise and needed. They draw down on the tools that PSPC sets up for them to use, and then they report in to the department in terms of the use of those tools.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Chair, can I ask for the will of the committee to ask them to table those documents?

Thank you.

Minister, in early February, I asked you about ACTRA workers. I want to check in with you on that situation to see what you've done about it. Your advertising, Cossette media, has been locking out their workers, the ACTRA union. This is a major Government of Canada contractor, and I don't believe that it's appropriate for the Government of Canada to provide contracts to companies that are hiring scab workers to replace unionized workers.

You've talked about passing anti-scab legislation, so I hope you agree. I'm glad that I brought it to your attention in the last meeting, but when I asked you about that, you had no knowledge of that situation. I got the impression that you were going to look into it. Have you done so? Have you communicated with Cossette? Have you taken any action, or are you going to?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

In response to the February meeting, I certainly did ask my officials to give me an update. As you will recall, we do have an integrity regime that governs cessation of contracts and so on.

Again, I think the associate deputy is probably the most appropriate person to tell us what that contract looks like and what we can potentially do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It would have to be a very quick, 10-second answer.

[Arianne Reza]

I can be very quick.

It's media, so there are no actors involved. It's management of media, so we've confirmed that the Cossette contract has no actors involved in it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks. That is our time.

Mr. Johns, for clarification, I'm sorry. I didn't see anyone nod or say no to your request. You moved on.

Can you clarify, please, what you're looking for, and we'll ask? I'm sure the committee is fine with that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes, I think Ms. Reza identified that she would be willing to report back to the committee about those three situations where temporary workers are being used, how much the government is spending on them and the last time they audited the department's use of temporary workers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Is the committee fine with that?

That's wonderful.

Before we get to the second round with Mr. Barrett, it looks like we will be going into a vote shortly. We'll need unanimous consent to continue the meeting through the bells and maybe we'll suspend with about five minutes left so we can run up to vote. Is everyone fine with that?

Thanks, colleagues.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett, for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

In as brief an answer possible, what does fast-tracked procurement look like?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I am not clear on the definition of “fast-tracked procurement”, so I will turn to the associate deputy for that definition.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Sure.

Answer as quickly as possible, please.

[Arianne Reza]

I don't have the actual wording in front of me, but it means “accelerated”. Usually, the supplier has been vetted and the processes reviewed against a framework agreement.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

Are you able to tell us how many SIG P320s—those are sidearms used by our men and women in the Canadian Armed Forces—have been delivered to the armed forces?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I will turn to our assistant deputy minister, Simon Page.

[Simon Page, Assistant Deputy Minister, Defence and Marine Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you for the question.

Unfortunately, I don't have that number at my fingertips this afternoon, but I can get the information.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Would you be able to provide it to the committee in writing?

[Simon Page]

Absolutely.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

Do you know how long that process has been under way?