Evidence of meeting #59 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Palter  Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company
Ryan van den Berg  Committee Researcher
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 59 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as “the mighty OGGO”, for anyone new to this committee.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, January 18, 2023, the committee is meeting on the study of the federal government consulting contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company.

We're going to start.

We have Mr. Palter.

I understand you have a five-minute opening statement for us, sir. Thank you very much.

4:30 p.m.

Robert Palter Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I'm pleased to offer some factual context and McKinsey's perspective on its work for the Government of Canada.

I've been the managing partner of McKinsey Canada since September 2022. I have been with McKinsey for 28 years, working with Canada's business and civic leaders across a wide range of sectors. We've been active in Canada for over 50 years and have deep roots in this country. We serve two-thirds of Canada's leading companies across all sectors, work closely with leading civic and not-for-profit organizations, and employ 1,000 talented individuals, 90% of whom are proud Canadian citizens. They take the responsibility of serving our country and communities seriously and with immense care.

Our public sector engagements since 2011 are the primary focus of this committee. It is, therefore, critical to point out that the vast majority of those engagements were the result of publicly tendered, competitive requests for proposals. The proposals we made in response to these requests were independently evaluated and ultimately awarded by public servants based on objective, point-rated technical and pricing criteria. Most of the remaining contracts were awarded through a national master standing offer, with a small number of sole-sourced agreements by the public service. In all cases, it was open to the public service to procure services in these ways, pursuant to federal government requirements.

McKinsey contracts were awarded based on merit-based criteria used by the public service, not as a result of any relationship at any political level.

In the fiscal year ending two days from now, the Government of Canada will have spent approximately $25 billion on external consultants. McKinsey contracts represent less than 1% of the total spend. Again, McKinsey contracts represent less than 1% of the total amount spent by the government on external consultants.

The committee has rightly noted that the volume of our work, as well as the work of other consulting firms, has increased over the last number of years. As the committee heard from departmental officials, this increase is because the demands placed on the federal government have grown significantly, as has the complexity of the challenges faced by the federal government. McKinsey brings global skills and expertise that complement the public service and produce tangible results for Canadians.

As the committee heard from ministers and senior officials, our expertise is a valuable complement to the talents and efforts of the public service. For example, we brought world-class call centre and productivity improvements to Miramichi, New Brunswick, in order to support our public sector and dramatically increase their efficiency and overall productivity. This is something only a global firm can provide perspective on, and McKinsey has the expertise to do so. Our firm has tremendous regard for Canada's public servants and has always approached our work in a way that seeks to provide significant value to the government.

The committee has also focused on our firm's activities outside Canada. Like any large organization, we are not perfect. When we have made mistakes, we have learned from them and made changes. Over the last several years, our firm has made significant changes to our professional standards, client service policies and risk management. McKinsey is committed to meeting the highest ethical standards. We have been transparent about these changes. Information on these changes is available on McKinsey's global website and has been for several years.

We care deeply about the country. Importantly, we seek to do work where we know we can make a difference in the communities where we operate.

In closing, we obtained our contracts by responding to the needs of the public sector, we followed the rules, we did very good work and that work delivered value to Canadians.

I'm pleased to answer any questions the committee may have at this time.

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Palter.

We'll start, for six minutes, with Mrs. Kusie.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Palter, for being here today.

I'm sure you saw in the budget yesterday that the government spent $21.4 billion on outsourced consulting, so it is of significant concern, not only for the official opposition, but for Canadians.

I'm sure you saw that on Friday the government did release some audit reports on their work with McKinsey. There were, in fact, some problems with the procurement process relative to the contracts that were awarded to your company at that time.

I'm going to go back now to a previous witness we had, Mr. Dominic Barton. In documents provided to this committee, we were made aware that Mr. Barton was brought in for a working session with the Canada Infrastructure Bank in July 2020. This was after he had left McKinsey. He was Canada's ambassador to China at that time.

When Mr. Barton appeared at the committee in February, he claimed he had no involvement with any of the McKinsey contracts with the Government of Canada.

Can you tell the committee which contracts McKinsey had with the government since 2015 that Dominic Barton was involved with in any way, including as the global managing partner of McKinsey or during his employment with McKinsey? Since you've been with the company for more than two decades, as you've indicated, I'm sure you would have a record of this.

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.

There are a couple of elements there.

First, I would start by saying that McKinsey adheres to all the policies and procedures that the federal government requires us to follow.

Second, I would let Dominic Barton's testimony to this committee stand. He made his remarks. I don't actually know the specifics of that meeting at the CIB. I don't know if he was actually there.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you.

According to one email regarding McKinsey's working sessions with the CIB, the session that was to include Mr. Barton was limited to a smaller audience because one of your partners wanted Mr. Barton to be able to speak freely.

What was intended to come out of those discussions that could not be discussed with a wider audience?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

Mr. Chair, I am not familiar with that email or the specifics of that email.

What I can say is that McKinsey takes its obligation to comply with the rules that the federal government applies to all contracts very seriously and we follow them very seriously.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

To your knowledge, was Mr. Barton involved in any contracts...? Actually, it is not “to your knowledge”.

Was Dominic Barton involved in any contracts with your other clients after he left McKinsey and became Canada's ambassador to China, Mr. Palter?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

Mr. Barton left McKinsey in 2018, as indicated in his testimony. He severed his economic relationship by selling his shares at McKinsey, as was shared with this committee. Mr. Barton was not working with any clients that I'm aware of, to the best of my knowledge.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay. Thank you for that information.

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

I also believe that Mr. Barton had an obligation to the federal government to disclose any conflicts, consistent with the policies of the government. He had to adhere to those.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Mr. Palter, have you or any of your employees met with any ministers of the current government?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

I have not personally met with any members of this government. I cannot state definitively whether my colleagues have or have not.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

Have you or your staff ever met with a minister's staff?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

As part of the normal course of delivery of our engagements and contracts, it is typical to engage with the civil service in the delivery of the work, yes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Can you be a bit more specific about, perhaps, which ministers, deputy ministers or ADMs and from which departments, please, Mr. Palter?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

Mr. Chair, I do not have off the top of my head a list of the specific interactions between McKinsey colleagues.

I do know we have an obligation to comply with the rules and regulations. We do take that seriously and we do follow that.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

On Friday, we found out that wasn't the case. Unfortunately, someone is at fault. We'll get to the bottom of it, but maybe not today.

Have you or employees of McKinsey ever met with the Prime Minister's Office?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

I have never met with the Prime Minister's Office, personally.

Again, Mr. Chair, I am unable to specifically comment on all members of our firm and whether they have had contact or not.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Have you had any communication with Mr. Barton, the Prime Minister's Office or any minister's office regarding our study here at the government operations committee?

4:35 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

I have not personally, no.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Did McKinsey ever meet or communicate with senior members or politicians of the Liberal Party prior to the 2015 election?

4:40 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

Again, Mr. Chair, McKinsey takes its obligation to follow the rules the government sets out very seriously.

It's a difficult question for me to answer because I don't have the specifics. I was not the managing partner at McKinsey Canada at that time. I do not know the specifics of those elements in question.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

In your opinion, do you think McKinsey was awarded the contract with the Canada Infrastructure Bank because of the work Mr. Barton did on the economic advisory council, even though he was no longer employed by McKinsey?

4:40 p.m.

Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company

Robert Palter

To the best of my knowledge, the work that McKinsey has won with the government, its agencies and departments is the result of complying with the procurement processes stipulated by the federal government.

McKinsey has distinctive capabilities on infrastructure. We are the global leading firm on infrastructure, so it shouldn't be a surprise that McKinsey is seen in that light.