Government Operations Committee on April 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me finish, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

—and then this is what I get. Great job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Johns, you'll have a chance to rebut afterward.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

To rebut, you will have a chance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I would ask that we all watch ourselves, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

It would be to your benefit, Mr. Johns, to actually pass this motion so that it could be referred to the House. We could get the documentation in both official languages, which, by the way, if you really respected it, you would have the expectation to receive. We could review those documents and hold this government to account, which I know you are not akin to doing—you and your colleagues. Finally, we could move on to the larger study, which I know you are very excited to do.

I'm not sure. I don't believe your intentions are good, Mr. Johns, showing up here today and suggesting that—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Now she's impugning.... It is ridiculous that this is being allowed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt.

I'm going to agree with you there, Mr. Housefather. If we could just stay on topic—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's funny when the Conservatives say there's a gong show going on. What kind of gong show are you allowing here, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Johns—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

This is a gong show.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

—I have sat and I have heard—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I'm looking for transparency, Mr. Johns.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Kusie, please, I have the floor.

Mr. Johns, I have the floor.

You can say it's ridiculous. I have heard rather disagreeable—I could use a different word but I won't—comments made from all parties. I'm not going to single them out, but I've heard them from all parties. Sometimes we just roll with it, and sometimes it gets a bit heated. However, I've heard it from everyone, pretty much.

I understand it's a bit heated. It's not how I would go, Mr. Johns. I am happy to discuss some of the comments you've made in the past, but I don't think that will add to it, Mr. Johns.

You're welcome to rebut Mrs. Kusie.

The second time around, Mr. Housefather did have a point. We're not going to agree with everything that's going on today, but I would ask that we just stick to being a bit more polite to each other, for lack of better words.

Go ahead, Mr. Johns.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I wasn't done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

If you could stay on topic, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

We can certainly leave it here. We will see how you vote on this motion. It's very clear you'll be voting against it. It's very clear.

I feel that we've tried to count on your support, several times over, only to be disappointed or to have Prime Minister Harper—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt and ask that we stay on topic and not be chatting sidebar or directly to others about this. Direct it toward me, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr Chair.

In summary, we've asked three times. Three times is more than enough. The costs that have been expended are a result of the bureaucracies not providing us with the documents we requested. This consideration of cost is not surprising; it is disappointing. I think it is indicative of what we've come to see in this committee and in the House, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Johns, you're welcome.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

After the assaultive accusations and already deciding on my vote, I will respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I appreciate where you're coming from, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I put forward a motion to expand the outsourcing companies to five. I didn't ask for all the documents specifically, because I was worried about the costs associated with that and the time. We'd be looking at a year from now. We'd be in the hundreds of millions of dollars, potentially.

It's funny when the New Democrats are worried about the cost of spending, and the Conservatives want to take ownership over that.

Look, all I'm asking for are some simple answers. I don't want the delays any more than anybody else. I don't want this report to go to the House with any appearance that this is an open matter as well. I think it would be good. We'd get written responses and evidence from the departments of their refusal to comply with the requests of parliamentarians so Canadians can see that.

If we send this to the House right now, we're giving these departments basically the chance to say that they were going to submit the rest of these documents, that they were pending x, y and z, or whatever. I don't want any more delays or extensions.

I think we should ask each department whether they're going to comply and submit these documents unredacted or refuse to adhere to the request of this parliamentary committee. We should get them here so we can ask them directly why they're holding back.

I will respond to the many accusations first.

We're trying to be respectful here. We had a member of the Conservative Party interrupt a committee member while speaking and trying to speak. If this is the decorum we're going to have here, we're not going to do well. I'm not saying I've been perfect here either. I had a bad day. We know that. I'll take ownership of that. I had two young people die in my home community, and I had to come to this committee right after. It wasn't easy.

I think things can get heated here, but we want the same thing. We want to stop the extreme out-of-control outsourcing.

With McKinsey, it started with trying to get to the bottom of why McKinsey had this acceleration in outsourcing. Then it turned into a witch hunt about the Prime Minister's connections to the former head of McKinsey, Mr. Barton, who probably has more ties to Mr. Harper, actually, than Mr. Trudeau, so that got thrown to the side. Now it's that McKinsey is responsible completely for the toxic-drug crisis.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I know I'm getting heckled again.

Clearly, on McKinsey's involvement and the pharmaceutical industry's involvement in the toxic-drug crisis, taking them to court is not going to solve the problem. We know that.

Now we're into parliamentary privilege.

Look, I just want to get the departments here so we can ask them questions. Why the delay? I want to get an idea of how much money we're spending on this. I didn't mean to insult anybody here by speaking in support of them or not, or whatever. I'll be more careful with that. Thank you.

If we can get them here, we can maybe revisit this. If we're going to vote on this today, yes, with this kind of energy, I will vote against it 100%.