Government Operations Committee on April 19th, 2023

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Absolutely. This is one aspect of the bill that was flagged to us. We examined it closely and pretty well exhausted this issue. It is our view that the disclosure protection regime must be strengthened and expanded, but it must apply to public servants.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay.

Some words, like “abuse of authority”, have been added.

What is the definition of “abuse of authority”? Can you define it or tell us what it should be?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

We are expanding the definition of wrongdoings. Take political interference, for example. It might be perceived as being new, but it's in the U.S. law, for example. It is one of the criteria of the Government Accountability Project. It is found in a number of places. It involves acts that go against the public interest. In the United States, the legal term is “improper intervention”, and here we might use something like “undue intervention”.

Abuse of authority refers to a manager's behaviour. Naturally, we wondered whether it should be defined in the act. After discussions with legal experts, we realized that the term may seem vague but is already well defined in the Public Service Employment Act, and had already been delineated in practice in Canadian labour law. Since the term is legally accepted and defined, and since it has been circumscribed by labour law jurisprudence, it is well and truly established in law.

I have to tell you that a lot has happened since I introduced the original version of the bill, and that it needs to include foreign interference. If a public servant—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that is our time for this round.

Now we have Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Garon, I have two and a half minutes, but you have already addressed my next question to some extent.

Is there anything not found in your bill that current events now force us to take into consideration?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

What matters is to expand the application of the act. This requires us to define the categories of wrongdoings under the act. This is why we refer, as I mentioned, to political interference and abuse of authority. They are fairly broad but well-defined terms.

Like I told Mr. Housefather, foreign interference must also be included. As a term, it's pretty well defined, while remaining broad enough. We saw this in the allegations of Chinese interference, among other things. If public servants or people that work in the government witness such interference and decide to report it to their organization, they must be protected. This is especially true when the system for protecting whistle-blowers is weak and people don't believe them; that leaves only one safety valve—media and journalists. In some cases involving national security, it is extremely important for public servants to be able to trust the system.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Exactly, and some public servants may be tempted to turn to the media once more instead of relying on the current process. Does this have repercussions on disclosure and the protection of whistle-blowers?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The media's job is important, obviously, but as I said at the outset, scandal does not constitute a management tool. The objective of having a good system for whistle-blowers is to protect these people in order to improve processes and remedy the shortcomings in government management that led to the irregularities.

Having an internal process that is perceived as an improvement mechanism is important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You are right on time. Thank you very much.

Mr. Johns, you have two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Another benefit of the bill is that it would allow public workers to report wrongdoing to, let's say, an officer in the portion of the public sector in which they are employed, and not just their immediate supervisor.

Can you share with us what the value is in that, and why it's so important that whistle-blowers have the ability to make that choice?

[Marc-André Roche]

Wrongdoings observed by public servants often occur in their work teams, and this could be the fault of their immediate supervisor. Currently, the employee can bypass the chain of command and make the disclosure to the person at the very top, the commissioner, although the process is very intimidating. However, sometimes the process should be simpler and involve the manager of a unit in the same department. This would simplify things and promote a culture of transparency, openness and frank discussion. The more simplified the processes, the easier it will be to solve problems before they escalate.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The bill extends the application of the act to wrongdoings in the public sector that involve an abuse of authority and political interference. With these additions, is the list of potential wrongdoings broad enough?

Have you heard from whistle-blowers or advocates that any other category should be added or included?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

As I said earlier, this is still a step forward. Only time will tell if these two additions are sufficient. We're not sure, but clearly it is a major step forward. Adding these two categories ensures that a greater number of wrongdoings are captured. I think foreign interference has to be added.

What I must stress, Mr. Johns, is that the bill also provides for a review mechanism every five years—which is not the case in the current act. The political world and the government's organizational structure and management methods change, so it's critical that the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act constantly adapt and that it be enshrined in the act. That alone is an important innovation, and will allow us to carry out further analyses and discussions. Once the bill has been passed and implemented, we can ask ourselves in five years whether the environment has changed enough to warrant new categories. This mechanism will likely be very beneficial to the legislation, since, clearly, updating the act has rarely been a priority.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us. I am pleased to see this bill come to committee. I had the opportunity to speak to it at second reading.

As you are aware, the Federal Accountability Act was brought in back in 2006-07 by a Conservative government, following the Liberal sponsorship scandal. Over time, we have obviously seen that the protections that were provided in that act are not adequate. It's always good to review legislation with a view to improving upon it. I believe that is probably what motivated this committee to undertake a study back in 2017 and come forward with a number of recommendations to update whistle-blower protections. I know there were a number of these recommendations put forward. I think there were 15.

I'm wondering if you could highlight for the committee, and potentially those who are listening in, which recommendations you used as part of this piece of legislation.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I already answered that question in a broader sense. If it's all right with you, I could provide you with a written answer and a table summarizing all the recommendations that we chose to include in Bill C‑290.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate that. Neither did I do a side-by-side in regard to the bill and the recommendations.

I want to refer to the annual report on the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act for 2021-22. In that report, the chief human resource officer stated the following:

In the 2021-22 fiscal year, federal government organizations received more enquiries and allegations than in any of the previous five years, and most of the allegations concerned a single serious breach of conduct. In parallel, we also saw the highest number of formal investigations launched. While these results may indicate public servants' growing awareness of the act, we know that more work is needed to strengthen the disclosure system to ensure employees have the confidence to come forward with cases of potential wrongdoing without fear of reprisal.

Were you at all concerned that the government abstained on the vote to send this bill to committee?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I think that the government will vote for this bill at third reading.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

All right. You have a lot more trust than many of us in this room.

Do you think that it showed a lack of commitment to protecting whistle-blowers, especially considering the lack of action in implementing the recommendations from the OGGO report and that it was something that was included in the TBS mandate letter?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Your question gives me an opportunity to send an extremely important message.

Regardless of how people voted at second reading, today, committee members have an opportunity to create momentum. Personally, I am looking ahead. I sense that the climate is conducive to moving the bill forward. I am committed to persuading all my colleagues to vote for it, which I believe is possible.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Are you open to amendments to this bill?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Yes, of course. It is the committee's prerogative to propose amendments and review them. We are also working on a number of amendments.

As I said, this is not a partisan issue. Any type of amendment that aims to correct or improve the bill will be considered. My intention is to expand the scope of the bill. If other parliamentarians have the same intention, amendments will be more than welcome.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Block.

Ms. Thompson, we'll go to you to finish up.