If I could add anything, it would be that, if you want to improve the culture at the top of the public service—and I'll agree with the previous witnesses that this is where it probably needs to happen—you would want to also have a look at the way they're socialized. You would want to look at how they're hired, socialized and incentivized because, as it stands right now, senior public servants are mainly rewarded for making problems go away and not for fixing the problems, necessarily.
On April 26th, 2023. See this statement in context.