Evidence of meeting #63 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was whistle-blowers.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
In the case of Mr. Sabourin or Ms. Gualtieri, there were repercussions: People made counter-accusations against the whistle-blowers.
Do you think there should be a limit and that people must sincerely believe that injustice has occurred before a complaint is accepted? Should there be a threshold?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
If you're talking about an initial decision maker, the answer is simple: never.
The initial decision-maker collects the complaint and an investigation must be conducted. There is no smoke without fire. When someone reports illegal or criminal actions, when they come out of the shadows to make a complaint, but they aren't believed and the complaint isn't examined, it stays in the shadows.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid that's your time, Mr. Fergus.
We'll go to Ms. Vignola, please, for six minutes.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Gualtieri and Ms. Dion, thank you for being here.
You both wanted to improve the system, but you paid the price. You were honest, but it had a huge impact. For that, I say thank you.
Ms. Dion, in your opening remarks, you said that the committee's work could help save lives. In fact, you repeated that in answer to a question. It's a powerful statement.
You don't have to answer my question if you're uncomfortable with it. Do you know of any public servants who have ended their lives or attempted to do so because of retaliation as a result of a disclosure?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
I know of four. There's one I don't know personally, but it came to my attention. However, I know three public servants who tried to take their own lives because they were caught in a retaliation situation.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Are you aware of any data on the number of federal public servants who have been placed on sick leave as a result of a disclosure?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
I've done some research on that, but I honestly don't know. But I think that long-term sick leave is very often associated with situations like that, so you just have to look at the number of public servants on long-term sick leave to get a sense of how many people have been under such pressure that it has destroyed their lives.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
You also said that as a result of everything you experienced, you suffered post-traumatic stress.
Do you still have any symptoms associated with that? If so, what are they?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
I've been in therapy since 2014. Even today, I have a great deal of difficulty trusting others and forming interpersonal relationships. I still have nightmares and anxiety. Yes, I still have a lot of symptoms. I think that for someone suffering from post-traumatic stress, it's lifelong. The person must relearn how to live with themselves, after being broken and shattered. I know now that I'm going to have to learn to live with the broken girl who can no longer trust others, since even when I screamed for justice, it didn't work.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Since Bill C‑290 is a private member's bill, we know that it doesn't have everything it would need now. It's up to the government to put things in place, particularly when it comes to money, and so on.
That said, as it stands, if Bill C‑290 had existed when you were a public servant and needed support, would you have experienced the same incidents you did?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
I'm sure that today I would still be standing on my own two feet and would still have my career. So no, I wouldn't have been in this situation if Bill C‑290 had been in force. I would have had a minimum protection, as would Mr. Sabourin. We would still be in Ottawa working, and we wouldn't both be broken.
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
Do you think that the people of Quebec and Canada in general are aware of the deplorable situation of whistle-blowers in the federal public service?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
No, the public can't know about it. It's hidden, completely hidden. When someone talks about it, what they say is discredited, because it's too big. We tell ourselves that it's not possible for this to happen in a machine, in a developed country like ours. Yet, it is, indeed, possible.
That's why I say that every complaint deserves an investigation so that decisions can be made afterwards. It's important to see what's going on. When a public servant steps out of their comfort zone to come to you for help, take the time to activate the process. You have the power to initiate a complaint process so that we can look for, prove and find the evidence to remedy the situation.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
It seems that Mr. Sabourin was threatened with retaliation if he spoke to the media or to MPs. They went so far as to threaten to take away his pension. Have you received similar threats? Can you elaborate on that?
Border Service Officer and Trainer, As an Individual
There were threats to take away our pensions. We were reminded that we were bound by confidentiality. That confidentiality was for the work I was doing, not for the abuse I was experiencing.
When a person is traumatized, when they are shaken, they no longer have all their head to think. When you threaten them directly, they'll freeze in place, not move, because they're being threatened and, on top of that, they may lose their pension.
In my case, I’ve already lost years of service. I have only 15 years of service, and I won't even get a full pension because they pulled the rug out from under me.
So we absolutely need Bill C‑290.
Conservative
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
First, thank you both for your courage and for seeking justice.
Ms. Gualtieri, I'm going to go to you first.
Would a public servant have a high chance of prevailing with whistle-blowing right now with the the passage Bill C-290?
Maybe you can also speak about what is missing from Bill C-290. I was reading an article where you talked about other countries and what they've done that could be added to strengthen this bill and to even further protect workers.
Retired Lawyer, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, As an Individual
Thank you for that.
Tom Devine was to be here today. He is the legal director at the Government Accountability Project. I have been working with him since 1998. In fact, I chaired the board at the Government Accountability Project. He is really the global leader in drafting legislation, so he will speak to this.
Perhaps that's why I was emotional. I really do not speak about my case. I don't want to shine a spotlight on myself. I have been so involved in the legal aspects of it. We decided that he would speak to it today, and that I would speak more to the human dimension.
Turning to your question of whether Bill C-290 gives a whistle-blower a fighting chance, I support deeply the passage of Bill C-290, because it's not just what's in the law; it's what it represents. It represents a step forward in this movement for transparency, accountability and employees' free speech rights.
Will it do the job? No, it will not. That is because it is a very formidable machine that you're going up against.
Monsieur Garon knows that, but he's limited by a private member's bill in what he can put in. The government has the pen to do a lot more. We are going to lean heavily on the government to do that.
For instance, there's no provision for legal counsel in this bill. The burden of proof is not covered in this bill, though I believe there are going to be attempts to deal with that. When somebody comes forward with a complaint, the burden shifts to the other side to show that the retaliation was in no way linked to the disclosures they made. Without that, the complainant carries the burden of proof.
How do you prove what is difficult, which is what your bosses were doing or what is buried in their paperwork that they've never shared with you? You should know that the documents in my case, when piled on top of each other, were five storeys high. It's a lot of information.
This bill is really about kicking off a whole new debate about whether Canada is a country that is going to protect truth-tellers and those people who seek to protect us, the public.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
You have me thinking about something here.
What does it say to you that the government hasn't tabled comprehensive legislation on whistle-blowing? Obviously, the previous government did, and it actually backfired in many cases.
What does it say to you when we have consecutive Liberal and Conservative governments that haven't addressed this?