Evidence of meeting #64 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was whistle-blower.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
We'll now go to Mr. Bains to finish things off.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for joining us today.
Dr. Brill-Edwards and Mr. Bruyea, thank you for your service, for your courage and for your continued advocacy on this issue.
I want to go back to something that Mr. Johns raised about culture. When I think of that word in this sense, I think of terms like “old stock”, “good old boys”, “this is the way things are done” and “we protect our own”.
Can you speak to how we can foster a healthier culture? This seems to have been going on for a long, long time.
Legal Director, Government Accountability Project
I'll take the first crack at that.
It's through application. All the studies on the impact of whistle-blowing have shown that it's extremely beneficial for the organization. It may be a problem for the individuals who are engaging in illegality and corruption or abusing their power, but for the organization it's very advantageous.
Organizations in the private sector, for example, that have internal corporate whistle-blower policies have fewer government enforcement actions against them for less severe penalties. They have fewer lawsuits and litigation filed against them, and these are resolved with more modest results.
The truth is to the benefit of these organizations, and that's why most whistle-blowers don't break ranks. They're doing it on behalf of their institution.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I'd also like to hear from Mr. Bruyea about this.
Thank you.
Retired Captain, As an Individual
What I'd first like to emphasize is what you're doing here right now, which is holding the organizations accountable for those who violate the good intentions of all the employees who work for them. The Canadians who work in the public service, such as those who work in Parliament, really believe they're doing something good.
Now that also goes to the other thing of culture. What are they loyal to? The boss, the organization, the country. We have to look at the filters that are in place that put the incentives and disincentives there for individuals to carry out their work.
For instance, I spend a lot of time analyzing rhetoric from people at Veterans Affairs. They say they really care about veterans. There's no doubt that they believe they care, but there are so many filters. First, they have to meet budgetary requirements. Then they have to meet treasury board requirements for reporting on whatever goes on within the department. Then they have the hierarchy of the structure, of the people who are not taking the initiative to care for those veterans. They may care, but they're putting all those other filters first. By the time it gets to the veteran, they are not caring anymore.
What we have to do in whatever culture is to put front and centre a loyalty to a cause, a cause where everything that's written follows that principle. Treasury Board principles should not be written toward satisfying some unique Treasury Board demand; they should be written toward satisfying the demands of the country, the demands of the people, the demands of the people who brought you here. We have to start looking at those filters and editing them for when they don't meet the principles we put in place and value.
Does that answer...?
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I have time for one more. I'd like to go back to Mr. Devine on the issue of contractors. Mr. Bruyea mentioned it.
The bill seeks to add contractors to the definition of public servant under the act. Does this create a constitutional division of power? Most contractors are covered by provincial labour legislation.
I know I asked that before. My understanding is that you might be able to address it.
Legal Director, Government Accountability Project
The U.S. contractor laws are tied to federal funding, but they're the most significant aspect of public policy benefits from whistle-blower protection.
I'll give the example of fraud. In 1986 we deputized whistle-blowers to file lawsuits against fraud in government contracts. Before that, the justice department in our country, acting alone, would average about $10 million a year in civil fraud recoveries. Since then, the average has gone up to $1.5 billion. In the last five years, it's been over $3 billion here. One case brought in $5 billion.
Fraud in government contracts is the magnet for corruption globally, and it's the most significant of benefits from a whistle-blower law.
I don't have the expertise to answer the distinction between federal contractors and provincial contractors, but a beachhead with federal contractors will get very significant benefits.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
That brings us to the end.
Witnesses, we thank you very much, sincerely, for joining us today.
Mr. Devine, thank you for coming all the way from Washington, D.C. It is greatly appreciated.
With that, colleagues, we will suspend and go in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]
