Government Operations Committee on May 17th, 2023

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

We drafted this amendment following a discussion with Mr. Garon and the Bloc Québécois to find alternatives so that there would not be only one person responsible for receiving complaints. If this amendment is adopted, more than one person will be able to receive them, and the necessary processes will be established. This way, we would ensure it can be established in any department or agency without it being difficult to define. This meets the need that Mr. Garon identified.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

If amendment G-4.3 passes, then amendment NDP-7 goes away. There's a line conflict. If this passes, NDP-7 goes.

Colleagues, I won't suspend unless it's going to drag on for more than a couple of minutes. We will allow time to chat among yourselves.

Ms. Kusie, go ahead.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

We agree with that. It makes sense. We will support G-4.3, which would amend clause 6 of the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Are we ready to go to a vote, colleagues?

(Amendment agreed to on division [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you, colleagues.

Amendment LIB-7 has been withdrawn.

Shall clause 6 carry as amended?

(Clause 6 as amended agreed to on division [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We have a new clause 6.1, on which there is amendment G-4.4, which is on page 21.2 in the package.

We should be calling out “Bingo!” here.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

G-4.4: That was my bingo call.

All right. This will help us get to a definition of what is a conflict of interest. This is using the Conflict of Interest Act to define political interference by having internal complaints referred to the Ethics Commissioner, who can investigate them. This allows that if there are Conflict of Interest Act complaints that are made internally with the department, they will be referred to the Ethics Commissioner. This is G-4.4.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Do you need a few moments, colleagues, or can we move forward? We're on page 21.2.

Go ahead, Ms. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm trying to understand this amendment. My interpretation is that it gives the whistleblower less choice. Some of the information in the disclosure could fall within the scope of this bill, but if the senior officer decides otherwise, the whistleblower might have to take the complaint elsewhere, that is, to the commissioner, instead of immediately receiving support.

I want to make sure I understand the intent of this amendment. It's unclear to me. It's as if we were giving the whistleblower less choice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Garon is next.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I'd like to add something: the Conflict of Interest Act does not protect anyone in the event of reprisal. Essentially, if this amendment were to be adopted, it would narrow the scope of the bill by removing protection in case of retaliation. Yet this is completely contrary to the spirit of the bill. It's a direct assault.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That is certainly not our intent. We want to make sure that the right procedures apply at the right time.

I'll ask officials to explain the scope of this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Ms. Stevens.

[Mary Anne Stevens]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There is currently a section in the PSDPA whereby if the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner receives a disclosure that should be dealt with or that is a topic that is covered by the Conflict of Interest Act, he refers those disclosures to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, and they're dealt with under that act. Because the disclosure was originally made to the PSIC, though, you receive the protections of the PSDPA.

This amendment would do the same thing for disclosures internal to departments, so that if the subject matter should be dealt with under the Conflict of Interest Act, it would be dealt with by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, but because the disclosure was already made under the PSDPA, they would be protected by the protections of the PSDPA. It would have the added benefit, related to something I said on Monday, that you wouldn't be asking a public servant to investigate, potentially, a minister or exempt staff. It would be done by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, who already works in that realm.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Garon.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I just want to make sure I understand.

This means that if the complaint were made under the Conflict of Interest Act, it would be the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner who would receive the complaint, but in the event of retaliation, the usual protections in the bill would continue to apply, without the complaint being processed.

[Mary Anne Stevens]

Yes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

All right, I understand. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Ms. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I just want to say that we support the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a question.

For the sake of clarification, given the information we have just heard, would it not be necessary to add, at the end of proposed subclause 12.1(1), after the word “ethics” and the comma that follows, the following: “while ensuring continuity of protection for the whistleblower”, to ensure that there are no gaps in the protection for whistleblowers?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please turn your mike on, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I can answer that question, Mr. Chair.

In fact, the gap that Mr. Garon and Mrs. Vignola have just pointed out is closed in LIB-12. The amendment proposes to replace the beginning of section 68 of the Conflict of Interest Act with the following:

If a matter is referred to the Commissioner under subsection 12(2) or 24(2.1) of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, the Commissioner shall

That allows us to cover the gap you just identified.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Ms. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

LIB-12 proposes to add a new clause to the bill with the proposed wording referring to subsection 12(2) of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, but it doesn't exist.