Government Operations Committee on May 17th, 2023

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's exactly the new provision proposed in G-4.4.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right, I understand. It's because it hasn't been adopted yet.

However, the new subclause doesn't provide any new protection. It reads:

(2) If a senior officer refuses to deal with a disclosure under subsection (1), the senior officer must inform the person who made the disclosure and give reasons why he or she did so.

It doesn't say at all that the whistleblower will be protected.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Clause 42 is a new clause that will be added to the bill, after line 14 on page 12. We are now proposing that a new sub-clause be added to the bill.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, it is subclause 12.1(2), which I just read.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

What is proposed in the new clause 42 will specifically address that gap by clarifying what is the commissioner's responsibility and—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

No.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I can ask the officials to give you a specific answer, but from my understanding, that is what it is.

Mr. Chair, can Ms. Stevens enlighten us?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please go ahead, Ms. Stevens, and thank you.

[Mary Anne Stevens]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame Vignola, I think I can reassure you that it's actually in the definition of “protected disclosure”. It's a disclosure made by any public servant,

in the course of a procedure established under any other act of Parliament;

Whether it's under the PSDPA or the Conflict of Interest Act or the Privacy Act, you are still protected by the reprisal protections of the PSDPA.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Does it protect the whistle-blower's anonymity?

[Mary Anne Stevens]

The difficulty is that it's hard to protect when you don't know who they are.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So the whistle-blower is not protected because they do not remain anonymous.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please go ahead, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Any whistle-blower would have to declare to someone that they are denouncing an activity or an act. They would have to denounce it to the person, and then they are protected and their privacy is protected. Is that not correct?

[Mary Anne Stevens]

Yes, that's correct.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Can you clarify, then, your answer to Ms. Vignola, in terms of how that protection is extended to those whose complaint would best be addressed by the Conflict of Interest Act?

[Mary Anne Stevens]

A disclosure under any act of Parliament is protected by the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act. If I understood correctly, the question was about anonymous disclosures. It is difficult to protect those who make anonymous disclosures, because you don't know who they are. You don't know whom to protect.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I don't think she meant that to be an anonymous disclosure.

Mrs. Vignola, were you referring to persons making anonymous complaints or to protecting their identity?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I was talking about protecting their identity.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's what I thought.

Ms. Stevens, you misunderstood the question.

[Mary Anne Stevens]

I'm sorry.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Now that the question has been clarified, can you answer Mrs. Vignola?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Then we're going to Mr. Genuis.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Actually, it's fine. I might be slow to catch on, but once I've got it, it's fine.

[Mary Anne Stevens]

Okay, thank you.