Government Operations Committee on May 31st, 2023

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fortier, if Bill C‑13 is passed, the Treasury Board Secretariat will become responsible for the implementation of the Official Languages Act. The Commissioner of Official Languages has indicated, however, that things are deteriorating given that unilingual anglophone public servants are in positions that are supposed to be bilingual and that francophones cannot or dare not speak their first language because in some cases they are made fun of or not taken seriously at all.

Let me give you another example. With regard to contracts, McKinsey has been asked to deliver its work in English only. I do wonder about the number of unilingual francophone public servants who are in positions that would normally be for bilingual employees only, but I guess the commissioner would be the one to answer that question. The number should be close to zero.

What will the Treasury Board Secretariat do to ensure that the bilingualism requirement applies to everyone and not just to francophones?

Ideally, in a bilingual country, when someone who is a francophone, such as myself, speaks to an anglophone in French, that person should understand and, if an anglophone speaks to me in English, I should also understand them. I can in fact understand, but the opposite is not true, and we see this among public servants in particular.

What specifically will you do to address this?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It is something I am very passionate about, and have been for more than 35 years. The good news is that, once the Senate passes the bill, we will have modernized the Official Languages Act. It was necessary. Among other things, it will give the Treasury Board president and their successors other powers so we can monitor and evaluate. Further, we will find ways to better serve Canadians in both official languages, right across the country.

We know there are already some good results, but there are also some weaknesses that we have to work on. I know there is a lot of second-language training, among other things. My mandate includes increasing the ability of public servants to work in both official languages. I have to ensure that they receive the training to do that.

In addition—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's great. Thank you, Minister.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Time is already up?

I'm so passionate about this question, Chair.

I could talk more about this later on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I understand.

Mr. Johns, it's over to you.

Before you start, the PBO published a report today on some of the OAS changes. It may have answered some of the questions.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, I've been in contact with the executive director of the Black Class Action Secretariat. I am extremely concerned by what he shared.

First of all, Treasury Board told the secretariat to produce a pilot Black mental health program as a partner. They spent 15 months consulting the best experts on racial trauma and mental health. They came up with a solid evidence-based program. When it was time to present the pilot program to Treasury Board, lawyers cancelled the whole thing. The secretariat never got to present it.

Minister, the secretariat confirms that their pilot program is complete and can be ready in short order. Why did the Treasury Board refuse to receive the pilot program that this Black-led, non-profit organization worked so hard on?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

First of all I will tell you that there have been efforts to work with the networks to co-develop a Black mental health program. We looked at all of the contributions that were made.

In the last budget, I have good news. We have a budget to bring forward a Black mental health fund. We have the Black mental health fund to bring forward the program and we're actually working on the program as we speak.

There was not a presentation of a program. I believe that there was more of a conversation on what could be offered, with consultation and co-development.

The good news I have to tell you is that with the investments we received in budget 2022 to look at how we could offer this program, we were able to get an increased amount in budget 2023. We will be rolling out that Black mental health fund in the next three years.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

When I was talking to the secretariat, they identified that the Treasury Board has received a second tranche of funding, which you identified, of almost $50 million to implement a program, but they still haven't developed one. That was the first set of funding. That was what you rolled out the first funding for. It still hasn't been done. The secretariat says that there's now no Black involvement in the program development.

Does the Treasury Board intend to begin involving Black employment networks, public service unions and the Black Class Action Secretariat?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about five seconds, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, I will have to say that this is ongoing work. With the new funding that we just got, we are going to be working in consultation with public servants and with the networks to bring forward and implement this Black public mental health fund.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, I'm afraid.

Ms. Block is next, for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today, and thank you to your departmental officials for joining you in hopes of answering some of the questions we have.

Minister, with hybrid work here to stay, can you please tell the committee how many public servants are still working from home?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

First I'd like to say that every department has identified, under the directive of the hybrid we brought forward, that they can work two to three days from home. Departments identify and develop with their teams how they will abide by this directive.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Do you have a percentage? Can you tell us what percentage of public servants will be working from home at any given time?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, as the Treasury Board, we propose, we bring forward the directive, and the departments implement and develop this directive. Therefore, we are not to gather data. It's each department that follows that directive and the principles.

I would like to say, if I may, that during the negotiations, there was a big push by the Public Service Alliance for the directive or the hybrid work to be grievable. I was very clear with the officials who were negotiating that it was a management right.

Therefore, we found a solution to make sure that we have a letter of intent out of this agreement to look at how we can review the directive on telework that exists. It hasn't been reviewed since 1993. That will be something we will be doing in the future.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you. Let's move to a different topic, then.

The Treasury Board website states that “The Secretariat helps ensure tax dollars are spent wisely and effectively for Canadians.”

Since this is your responsibility as the President of the Treasury Board, what stats can you provide to the committee today that would demonstrate productivity over the last couple of years while our public servants were working remotely?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

First I'd like to share.... I know the chair loves to talk about departmental results and departmental plans. Those are where we can see how departments are moving along in delivering on the departmental plans they've brought forward. The departmental results show the degree.

I would say that it would be very difficult for the board to identify hybrid productivity. We're looking at how the services or programs are delivered and not necessarily at how people are delivering those programs.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

Again, as the President of the Treasury Board, you are responsible for ensuring that tax dollars are spent wisely. You are someone who, I believe, sees all of the departmental reports. Is there nothing provided to you as the president that would demonstrate the productivity of departments and of the public service with respect to whether they're working in the office or remotely?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, I can maybe ask Mireille to give examples of how we evaluate the delivery of the programs, but I would not say there's a dataset that identifies who's working from home and who's working in the office to deliver those programs.

[Mireille Laroche]

Thank you very much.

Very quickly, as you know, there are so many jobs and so many functions within government. Some are very precise in terms that you can quantify—number of calls, amount collected, and so on and so forth. Others are a little bit more, I'll say, intangible in terms of how it's done.

We do have some metrics. Again, it is the responsibility of the departments to set objectives and to be able to monitor those. Every employee within government has a performance agreement in which objectives are actually set, and then they're evaluated and feedback is provided. That's how we do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Housefather, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, the departmental plans for the Treasury Board Secretariat include new spending to hire 74 full-time equivalents who will provide monitoring of regulations.

Effective monitoring of regulations includes eliminating regulations that are no longer needed, which helps companies thrive.

Can you tell us what you are doing to lighten the regulatory burden and help Canadian companies in that way?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

There is in fact a bill under consideration, Bill S‑6, for the modernization of regulations on an annual basis. It has already been through the Senate and is now being considered by the House. It is a key part of the government's work to increase effectiveness while providing measures to protect the environment, consumers, and health and safety. This bill includes 45 changes that I would call “common sense changes”. Their purpose is to reduce the administrative burden on companies, to facilitate digital interactions and to simplify regulatory processes. I know all parties are very keen to reduce the regulatory burden, and I hope we will be able to vote in favour of those changes.

I have in fact discussed this with members of the farming sector who, like people in other sectors, are very keen to see those regulations changed. It would help cut down on the paperwork to be filled out and thereby facilitate their activities. It would allow them to work more effectively.

In Washington last week, I met with representatives of the Office of Management and Budget, from the White House. A number of years ago, Canada and the United States created the Canada-U.S. Regulatory Cooperation Council. The members of that council had not met for some time. So I went to see if there was any interest in the changes we are proposing in particular.

Regulatory issues are constantly evolving. The joint efforts of Canada and the United States in this regard are very significant. We decided to reactivate the council and to examine together what changes could be made specifically regarding supply chains, the environment and climate change, as well as critical minerals.

We're moving forward with that.

The good news is that the members of this council were very receptive at the meetings. I hope we will reactivate the council. The current administration will be there for two more years, and a lot can be accomplished in those two years. I hope to make progress in other areas, including with our partner and ally, which I would describe as “natural” in business. Things are happening with respect to regulations in Canada. Together with the United States, Canada can continue to work on the regulatory framework.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Of course, since you were in Washington last week, I imagine you were involved in the negotiations between the President and the Speaker to resolve the budget dispute and the debt ceiling.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Well, actually, I was their good luck charm, because they got a deal done while I was there.