Evidence of meeting #72 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cost.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
When you talked about the increase, it was actually in the dollar value that you saw the increase; the support document wasn't there for us to be able to figure out which department or which ministry would have the personnel increase.
6:10 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's in the document itself. I just don't have the document in front of me.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay.
Do you have any idea, based on having looked at this, of where the major increase is on the personnel area? Is it in government services or in IRCC or...?
6:10 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I really don't remember. I'm sorry.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay. No worries.
That's pretty much it. I mean, there's another $4.9 billion for Indigenous Services, but the breakdown is quite clear in the report you've put in.
Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Jowhari.
Ms. Block, you have five minutes, and then Mr. Kusmierczyk will have five.
June 14th, 2023 / 6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I join my colleagues in welcoming you here today, Mr. Giroux and Ms. Vanderwees. I appreciate as well the opportunity to ask multiple questions of you, although five minutes doesn't give us a lot of time.
I want to follow up on some of the questioning of my colleague Mr. Chambers in regard to the carbon tax. We now have carbon tax number one, and then we have carbon tax number two. I want to ask you to confirm some numbers for me going forward in regard to the net cost to a household once these taxes are fully implemented.
It's my understanding that in Saskatchewan, carbon tax number one will cost households $1,723. Carbon tax number two will cost $1,017. That's a total of $2,840. In Alberta, carbon tax number one will cost Alberta households $2,773. Carbon tax number two is another $1,057. Once fully implemented, that will cost Alberta households over $3,900.
Can you confirm those numbers? Can you then confirm whether those two numbers are the highest in the country and whether in fact Alberta is the highest of all?
6:10 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I don't have the numbers for the carbon tax itself in front of me, but the numbers you quoted seem to be accurate, based on my recollection. The clean fuel regulation numbers you quoted aren't exactly the numbers in our reports, but assuming the carbon tax numbers are right, which I assume they are, yes, what you say would be accurate.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Saskatchewan and Alberta will be paying the highest carbon tax per household in the country, with Alberta being the highest.
6:10 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes. That is due to the economic structure of these two provinces, which rely more on the oil and gas sectors than most other jurisdictions in the country.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
I want to switch gears now and ask you very quickly about the “Strong, Secure, Engaged” strategy in Canada. An article just published today states that the Royal Canadian Air Force could not take part in NATO exercises because essentially “our Air Force is up on bricks”.
What I'd like to hear from you is if you could give us an update on “Strong, Secure, Engaged” and if there actually is enough money to fulfill the stated objective of this strategy. If not, how much more is needed?
6:10 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
The last time we looked at the spending profile for capital spending under “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, we found that there was a delay in the department in spending the money. It led to a re-profile. The spending didn't start as fast as as expected, so they had to re-profile some of it out into the future. That, of course, in the absence of an overall increase, reduces the number of pieces of equipment the government can buy, because the value of money tends to decrease over time.
That being said, we don't make assessments as to whether or not that is enough to buy all the equipment that the Canadian Forces say they will buy, because there could be reductions in other types of capital spending—for example, base refurbishments or renovations at bases. The government could choose to still fund the acquisitions it plans to undertake by reducing other areas of capital expenditures.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
Are you aware if DND has changed their plans to take into consideration some of those delays? Have they put forward a plan to meet the obligations as outlined in the strategy?
6:15 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
They haven't, not to my knowledge. The last time we released a report on that was more than a year ago, and since then we haven't looked at that situation. Maybe they did, and we just didn't study it to provide an updated report.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Before I circle back to my original question about recommendations on how to make it easier for us in public accounts and on all Canadians as well, I want to take a second to ask you a question on the VW report that you released. I was there this morning and I was listening very attentively.
I want to ask you a simple question: Have you ever seen the scale of investment in our auto workers and in manufacturing, in manufacturing communities like this one, like the scale of investment in Volkswagen in St. Thomas and also in Stellantis in Windsor, my hometown?
I'm asking you as someone who grew up in an auto town, who has experienced the ups and downs of the automotive industry and who has seen the dark days of 10 years ago and the displacement, the job losses. Have you seen this scale of investment in our auto workers and auto communities like St. Thomas and Windsor, which you studied in your PBO report that you presented to us this morning?
6:15 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
No. I haven't seen anything like that before.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay. That's a simple answer. I appreciate that. It was very to the point.
Going back to my original question, can you provide us with some recommendations on how we can make the budget and the estimates more legible and more accessible to us as MPs, and also to all Canadians who want to look into the numbers and into the business of government?
6:15 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
That's again a clear question that calls for hopefully a clear answer, but it might be difficult to answer briefly on this one.
I think there are many steps that could be taken to achieve the stated objective of making these documents more readable. I think one obvious first step, which I mention often, is to better align the estimates process with the budget process. Then when the main estimates are tabled, we would be able find budget items more easily. If the main estimates are tabled before the budget, they don't include what is in the budget, so aligning the two would be a very good first step.
The other aspect I would recommend is something I try to do myself, but it is very difficult: writing in plain language. It's especially difficult when the text is drafted by bureaucrats in various departments. They all want to be as precise as possible, but they don't have a common culture of writing in plain language. I'm guilty, and my office is guilty, of not doing that.
Having a budget that is tabled at a fixed date or within a short window would certainly allow for better alignment between the main estimates and the supplementary estimates. That would make it easier for people like you and your colleagues to hold the government to account and to scrutinize these very important pieces of of legislation and these accountability documents.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Giroux, when I was a city councillor on Windsor City Council, we introduced a budget tool mechanism that allows residents to play around with or manipulate spending priorities. For example, if you wanted to reduce the budget for the police, you would see the impact that this would have on the budget, as well as on taxes and on services.
Is there a tool that's available that could be similarly implemented to allow Canadians to play around with and change the budget to what their priorities are and to perhaps see the impact that would have on the quality of service and also on the level of taxation and whatnot? Is something like that available out there? I'm just curious.
6:20 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
There's something very similar to what you described available on the very good PBO website, where Canadians and parliamentarians can adjust the tax rates and the tax brackets, including the GST and excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol, if you are interested, and see what it does to the bottom line, which is the deficit or the surplus. We haven't gone further to permit playing with the overall priorities of the government, but it is a very good first step for those of us who are interested, like me, in various elements of policy-making.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Is there a way to link that also to service standards or the quality of service as well, so that when you reduce funding for immigration, let's say, it shows what the impact could be on service levels? Is there an ability to connect it in that way? I'm just curious about whether that's possible.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
It will have to be a very brief answer, because we're past time already.
6:20 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I'm sure there is a way to do that. Reducing funding for operational expenditures at IRCC would mean lengthened delays in the processing of immigration applications.