Evidence of meeting #74 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mireille Laroche  Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Dancella Boyi  Legislative Clerk
Mary Anne Stevens  Senior Director, People and Culture, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 74 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as the mighty OGGO, the only committee that matters. If you're watching at home on CPAC, I hope you will hit “like” and “subscribe”.

Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the House of Commons on Wednesday, February 15, 2023, the committee is meeting for clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-290, an act to amend the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.

I will remind everyone to please keep your earpieces away from the microphone, as it causes feedback.

Quickly, colleagues, I'm going to seek unanimous consent for the proposed budget of $2,950 for the study of the certificate of nomination for the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner. As always, that budget is the upper limit. It does not mean we'll spend, probably, any of it—not more than some coffee and a few other items.

(Motion agreed to)

That's wonderful. Thank you very much.

We will resume clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-290 on amendment G-12 to create new clause 42.

Now, resuming debate on G-12, Ms. Vignola, I understand that you had a subamendment. You've given the printed copy to our legislative clerks.

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

The electronic version was sent to the clerk. It reflects what we were talking about yesterday, namely a six-month time frame for royal assent of the bill. The Senate could study the bill this September. All in all, it's reasonable. The time frame is the only thing that would be changed by amendment G‑12.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Housefather.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I'm sure that after my exciting explanation of G-12, you will have more subscribers on CPAC than ever before.

I wasn't sure it had been moved yet, because I thought we ended with the vote on G-11, but I'll both speak to Ms. Vignola's amendment and explain why G-12 is as it is.

First of all, I do appreciate the arguments Mrs. Vignola raised yesterday. The reason I voted with her against amendment G‑11 is that there's nothing binding on the Governor in Council, so we never know when the bill will come into effect.

With G-12, we have certainty. It says that it comes into effect two years after the deed of royal assent. Regardless of what happens, we know when it comes into effect. The reason for the original proposal of two years versus the six months was the amount of time it was estimated would be needed to develop the regulations, to put the policy into effect and to train people.

I'd like to pose a question to the officials on whether two years is a legitimate time and whether six months is a legitimate time, and whether they have comments about how long they believe it will take before the law can be properly put into effect.

If it's okay, Mr. Chair, that's a question for the officials.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Yes.

Ms. Laroche and Ms. Stevens, before you start, you should all have the proposed subamendment in your P9s by now.

Please go ahead, ladies.

6:35 p.m.

Mireille Laroche Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you very much for the question.

Good evening, everyone.

I'd like to start by talking about the two time periods. We think that six months would be very tight. Although the work can begin before royal assent is granted, we won't know what's going to happen with the bill until it's passed by both Houses.

I'll talk about some of the things. I think Mr. Housefather has already mentioned a few of them. You have approved new definitions in terms of wrongdoing—in terms of abuse of authority, political interference and foreign interference. These are to be defined in regulations. We need to consult and define, and, as you know, as part of the regulatory process, there is consultation that typically occurs and that typically takes about a year, if not more, to do.

Through this committee, we've also determined that the Treasury Board has to develop some new policies in terms of the internal disclosure process. Again, there has to be development, consultation and approval of those by TB.

Third, the tribunal, as you know, is now going to be receiving complaints of reprisals directly from civil servants. They will have to assess their processes and define whether there are new functions, such as conducting investigations, prior to that in order to be able to call or make a decision on the case in front of them. That takes time and, as we discussed, potentially additional resources.

We have also agreed and you have also approved that more people can actually get disclosures from public servants. We will need to be able to develop training, train the people and make sure that senior officials who are already in place know about the changes that are coming. We'll also have to make sure we have the proper awareness material for all civil servants to be able to know what the changes are, where they need to go, and how they can be supported if they wish to make a disclosure.

Finally, in terms of the piece we discussed yesterday about data collection for the PSIC, if we were to do this in six months, they likely would not have the time to define their questions, put their questioners in, get the data and analyze it for their next annual report, so they would be in breach of the law regarding the six months, depending on when it happens and the timing of the tabling of the annual report. That could be a problem for them as well.

For all these reasons, in our view, six months would not be enough time to do a proper job and to be able to make sure the law was adequately implemented. We would require a longer time. Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Ms. Vignola, go ahead.

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I have a quick question for you.

If the coming into force date of the bill were set at six months after passage, that would mean about 18 months from today, taking into account the Senate study and third reading stages.

If the coming into force date were 12 months after passage, would that be more reasonable? That would bring us to about 24 months from now.

6:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Mireille Laroche

That time frame would certainly be more reasonable than six months. That being said, it will also depend on the evolution of the bill, by which I mean the changes that will be made to it, particularly in the upper chamber.

So that doesn't necessarily mean that the coming into force date can be set at 12 months. Certain regulatory processes involve fixed steps that we don't have much influence over.

The time frame you're suggesting is definitely better than six months, but I think it would still be too tight in some respects.

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I'm going to withdraw my subamendment suggesting a time frame of six months. However, after listening to the officials, I also want to propose that the bill come into force after the first anniversary of the day on which it receives royal assent.

If my colleagues are willing, that's what I would like to propose in a second subamendment.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Okay. We need unanimous consent for you to withdraw the first subamendment about six months. I see that we have unanimous consent to withdraw that.

(Subamendment withdrawn)

Do you have the second subamendment in writing?

It has been emailed to everyone. We're now on the same wording as in the previous subamendment, but for one year.

Mr. Housefather, go ahead.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank my colleague for proposing a time frame of one year rather than six months. However, from what I understand, it can take a year to get through the regulatory process and the consultations. Furthermore, the process can't start until the Senate study and royal assent stages are completed.

If we listen to the witness, who's the expert on this subject, I believe 12 months is still too short. So I'd like to keep the coming into force date as the second anniversary of the day on which royal assent is given.

That's why I'm going to vote against Mrs. Vignola's subamendment.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks.

Mrs. Vignola, did you have something else?

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I'll be brief, Mr. Chair.

After listening to the officials, I split the difference so that the bill could be implemented sooner. Starting from now, the time frame would be 24 months, which is more reasonable than six months. I think we could spend all night arguing over this, but to avoid that scenario, I move that we call the vote, if my colleagues are willing.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Colleagues, are we ready to vote?

We are on the subamendment to G-12. Shall that carry?

It's tied, so I vote “yes”.

(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Shall G-12 carry as amended?

Mr. Kusmierczyk, your hand is up.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'm wondering if I can just speak to this amendment.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Do you mean G-12 as amended?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Yes, the amended.... Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the sentiment around the table of wanting to get this enacted as quickly as we possibly can. I think there's an urgency that we all recognize, but I think the concern here—and it's one that was expressed by the officials—is the danger or the risk here that, in essence, we will have a half-baked policy or a half-baked process in place. To me, that represents a significant danger. That represents a risk. That is a significant risk when you consider how delicate and how sensitive the issue is that we're discussing here—private information, cases that are being brought forward, concerns and disclosures.

We want to make sure that if we're going to do this, it's done correctly. What I just wanted to humbly flag for the committee members here is that what we agreed to with the amended clause is again the danger there, because it's being rushed. Again, we heard from the officials that it will be implemented without having all of the i's dotted and the t's crossed. That could have significant repercussions for the people we are trying to protect.

I wanted to flag that risk, because I think it is altogether real. Again, there is the need to balance the urgency of wanting to get this legislation into practice with, at the same time, being careful to make sure that all the t's are crossed and all the i's are dotted so that we actually do the thing we want to do, which is to protect the people who have the courage to step forward.

Again, I don't want to belabour the point here, but I really just wanted to raise that as a genuine concern. I'm not sure, in listening to what the officials said, that we in fact, with this amended clause, have actually struck that balance correctly.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks.

Are we ready to vote now, colleagues? Shall G-12 carry as amended?

(Amendment as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you.

We're on LIB-12, but since LIB-7, which is on page 21.1 of your handout, was withdrawn, amendment LIB-12 cannot be moved. It refers to subsection 12(2), which would have been created by LIB-7, therefore LIB-12 is eliminated.

We're now getting back to a couple of stood clauses.

(On clause 10)

We're on clause 10 and NDP-9. It had been moved, but I understand that Mr. Johns is going to withdraw it. We need UC to withdraw NDP-9.

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We are now on G-6, which is on page 25 of the package.

Mr. Housefather, you're speaking to this.

I'm sorry. Is it Mr. Jowhari?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Chair, I'm so sorry—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I think Mr. Jowhari is speaking first.

Can you hold on one moment, Mr. Housefather?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Of course. I wanted to go back to your question about LIB-12, though—

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Housefather.