Evidence of meeting #77 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We're back in session. We have several motions to look at.

Just very briefly, I want to inform everyone that we had hoped to have the PBO here on Tuesday. Unfortunately, INDU beat us to the invite. It's at exactly the same time, 3:30 on Tuesday. I suspect, due to the short time period and also because of the Speaker vote on Tuesday, we are not going to get the PBO. We may not have a meeting anyway because of the Speaker vote and delays, and we may not have time for subsequent witnesses, so I'm guessing—and it's only a guess right now—that there's probably a 75% chance we may not have a Tuesday meeting. I'll let everyone know as soon as I know or as soon as we know, but that's just an FYI for planning.

It's Mrs. Kusie and then Mrs. Vignola.

Go ahead, Mrs. Kusie, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Chair.

This is a very grave motion that I bring forward to the committee here today, Mr. Chair and committee members, because we all know what happened, but it happened, and we have a choice now. We have a choice to move forward. We can do that. We can choose that today. We can choose to move forward. We can choose to begin the healing of the pain that was caused in the House of Commons last Friday. That healing begins with finding out what happened. How in God's name did this occur?

We in the House are not the only ones left wondering how this happened. Our Jewish brothers and sisters are reeling as to the mere possibility of this event having taken place.

I have here a letter from the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center, which states:

The fact that a veteran who served in a Nazi military unit was invited to and given a standing ovation in Parliament is shocking. At a time of rising antisemitism and Holocaust distortion, it is incredibly disturbing to see Canada's Parliament rise to applaud an individual who was a member of a unit in the Waffen-SS, a Nazi military branch responsible for the murder of Jews and others and that was declared a criminal organization during the Nuremberg Trials. There should be no confusion that this unit was responsible for the mass murder of innocent civilians with a level of brutality and malice that is unimaginable.

An apology is owed to every Holocaust survivor and veteran of the Second World War who fought the Nazis,—

I want committee members to listen to this part:

—and an explanation must be provided as to how this individual entered the hallowed halls of Canadian Parliament and received recognition from the Speaker of the House and a standing ovation.

Our Jewish brothers and sisters are reeling at even the possibility of this happening. Those who fought alongside us are wondering if their sacrifices were for naught and their alliances were for naught. The world is wondering how this happened. In the words of my leader, Pierre Poilievre, Canada will have to wear this forever, but we have an opportunity here today and we have an obligation.

Mr. Chair, this horrible thing has happened, and we can't change what happened. We can't change it even if we want to change it, but we have an opportunity and an obligation for this, by God, to never, ever happen again. I encourage every single member of this committee to consider what it means to deny the opportunity to Canadians, to Holocaust survivors, and to the world to find out what happened.

I don't want to hear excuses. I don't want to hear that the Speaker should be on the list, because—guess what—we can add the Speaker to the list. We can amend the list of agencies I put forward to add the Speaker to the list. I have no problem at all. I would actually be very interested in hearing from the former Speaker as to what vetting processes he and his staff went through for this tragedy to occur.

I'm hearing excuses such as that it should go through the procedure and House affairs committee. The House procedure committee is currently seized with foreign interference as a result of the House of Commons asking to look into it. It is seized with that right now. The government operations committee has the flexibility and the ability to be nimble, to look at any issue when it is pressing and to immediately turn our resources, energies and efforts to do that, and we should do so in this case, which has brought embarrassment not only to Canada but throughout the entire world, so I don't want to hear excuses. I am asking everyone here today. We have an opportunity to begin to move forward to start the healing, and we can make that choice. Every single one of us on this committee can make this choice today to start that healing process, Mr. Chair.

With that, I'd like to read my motion into the record:

Given the international embarrassment created by the Liberal Government by allowing a former soldier of a Nazi military unit in World War II to attend and be recognized during the President of Ukraine’s special address to Parliament on Friday, September 22, and that proper vetting was either not done or this individual's military record was ignored, the committee dedicate 6 meetings holding hearings to look into this matter, and the committee hear witness testimony from representatives of the following: Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development (Diplomatic Protocol); Royal Canadian Mounted Police; Canadian Security Intelligence Service; Parliamentary Protective Service; House of Commons (Sergeant at Arms); House of Commons (International and Interparliamentary Affairs); Privy Council Office; Prime Minister's Office.

Mr. Chair, I will leave my motion there. The world is watching. We have the opportunity today, every single one of us on this committee, to make the choice to start the healing process and to find out exactly, precisely, what happened so that it never, ever happens again.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

I'll start the list. I have Mrs. Vignola and then Mr. Genuis.

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I'll speak again later.

What happened on Friday was outrageous, indeed. We should never have been asked to stand in the House in the situation we found ourselves in. It's important to get to the bottom of what happened, to find out exactly how this person was able to enter the House of Commons, and to determine how we can prevent this kind of situation in the future. I think this is important. If we had known that he was a Nazi, or a former Nazi, regardless of whether or not he still pledged allegiance to that movement, no one in the House would have stood up. This person would not normally have been in the House of Commons, let alone occupying a seat of honour.

That said, despite my colleague's comments, I am of the opinion that it is the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs that must validate House procedures, and I don't mean that as an excuse. I think it makes sense that it's up to that committee to check its own functions and its own ways of doing things.

I'm not sure what availability we're talking about when we say that the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates is available to study this file. We have seven or eight studies in progress that we have yet to complete, some of them very lengthy. It would be another case of postponing very important studies.

We'll be able to talk about it, but I suggest postponing the debate or asking the chair to write a letter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs so that it can begin the study proposed in this motion. There's no way I'm going to say no and dismiss this motion out of hand. I think it's important that this situation be studied, but it must be done by the right committee.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm not sure if it's the translation. The clerk is asking if you are moving a motion to adjourn debate on this motion. Okay.

I understood what Mrs. Vignola said. The clerk looked over to me to ask if we were adjourning. I asked to clarify because of the translation, and so I'm asking if it was a motion to adjourn this debate.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I was looking at the translation as well. I think what the member said was that we should send a letter to PROC, which would be a different substantive motion. Again, if a member has the floor, they have the right to move a motion to adjourn debate. But if the member says that we should send a letter and then cedes the floor, I would very much like to speak to this motion.

Someone can get on the list after me and move adjournment of the debate, but I do think we should have an opportunity to have discussion of this. In any event, I don't think the member moved the motion while she had the floor. She said we should send a letter, which is a different matter.

That's on a point of order.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola, and then I will discuss this.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I'll repeat what I said. I moved that we adjourn the debate to consider asking the chair to write a letter to refer the motion to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

I have therefore moved to adjourn the debate first and foremost. I move a motion to add the debate.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Just on the point of order, Mr. Chair, the member had to say it while she had the floor, and I don't think she has the floor anymore.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I understand the intent. Normally, we would just vote on the intent because of the way the committee has operated. Putting a condition on it brings it up for debate.

Why don't we hear from Mr. Genuis, and then we can go back to Mrs. Vignola and she can clarify what she wants.

Mr. Johns, did you want to chime in as well after Mr. Genuis?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

You're the chair.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm asking you.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

She has priority.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

So it's Mr. Genuis, then Mrs. Vignola and then you.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Yes, just leave it like that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Why don't you have your say, Mr. Genuis, and then we can go back to Mrs. Vignola, and then Mr. Kusmierczyk after Mr. Johns.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Obviously, the majority of the committee will have its will, but I hope we have an opportunity to at least have some discussion here today, because I think there are a lot of important points that need to be aired on this.

I want to start by sharing a little bit of personal context. I haven't spoken on this issue yet, but it's personal for me. My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor. I share in the shock about what happened on Friday. I personally wasn't here when it happened. I only found out about it afterwards. For me growing up, knowing about the Holocaust and World War II was obviously really important. It was a part of my family's history, as well as world history. My parents always emphasized the importance of knowing about history, how learning about history is how we avoid repeating it, how we learn from the mistakes of history, and how it's especially important for us to learn about these darker moments in our collective history so we can prevent these grave evils from repeating themselves.

The promise that was made to my grandmother's generation, the promise of “never again”, of not allowing genocides to happen in the future, is one we have obviously failed to deliver on. We have rising anti-Semitism around world, including here in Canada. By my count, there have been four instances in the time I've been a member of Parliament in which this House has recognized contemporaneous acts of genocide, so we know genocide continues. This, again, underlines the importance of knowing world history, of knowing our history, and of having that inform the decisions that our institutions make.

One of the things about this that are so shocking to me is that we have a whole apparatus of government that is responsible for security, for protocol, for ensuring the success of these visits. For any of the people involved in this process, it should just not have passed the basic smell test. The basic description of who this individual was—someone who fought against Russia during the Second World War—should not have passed a basic smell test. That should have led to any number of the people in RCMP protocol, the Prime Minister's Office and all those who were involved in this visit to ask more questions about it. In this country, there's a whole painful history of conflict around people who came to Canada who had been members of the Waffen-SS, so for people to not have known that history....

I think we need to underline that the Prime Minister is ultimately responsible for this apparatus. House of Commons security reports to the RCMP, and I think this is important from a process perspective. I understand that some members want to say this isn't a government operations issue but a procedure and House affairs issue. I agree with my colleague who said the procedure and House affairs committee is already seized with the issue of foreign interference, and pushing this over to procedure and House affairs is, I think, frankly, a way of trying to bury the discussion of it.

Moreover, this isn't just a question of procedure and House activities. This is a question of the operations of government and therefore we need to be looking at the operations committee. It suits the framing of some members, who want to avoid looking at the responsibility of the government and government operations for this outcome, to say that, no, it's just the House of Commons.

This was a state visit. The House of Commons is used for these kinds of addresses, but formally speaking, the House of Commons isn't sitting. We have people on the floor who are not members of Parliament. We understand that, formally speaking, the House doesn't sit. We have a foreign leader addressing the House within the House of Commons. This very much, I think, raises important questions of government operations. How did this happen from a government operations perspective?

So when members say it should be put over as a procedure and House issue, it's not a procedure and House issue fundamentally. It is more fundamentally a government operations issue, and we need to be able to ask those government operations questions, which I think include looking at how there was such historical ignorance within the processes that, ultimately, are the responsibility of the Prime Minister and the government, such ignorance of the debates that have happened in Canada around the Waffen-SS and of the history of the Holocaust itself.

Chair, the sad thing is that we are living through a time when the term “Nazi” is regularly thrown around as a political insult, apparently by people who don't seem to have a basic understanding and recollection of the history of Nazism. This is deeply troubling and it contributes, I think, to the concern about what happened last Friday.

I want to put on the record, as well, that it's important to underline what we're talking about in terms of the Waffen-SS. Some articles have referred to the person who was in the House as being someone who fought alongside Nazi Germany, and this grossly understates the full picture. The SS was the paramilitary unit of the Nazi Party that was personally loyal to Hitler. The SS was not just a unit within the German army; it was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party that was personally loyal to Hitler. It was deployed in all kinds of the most horrific, unimaginable atrocities, and it was used as a personal vehicle for exercising power.

It was there, in part, so that if there was agitation against the regime from within the army, the SS could be deployed. It was personally loyal to the Nazi Party and to Hitler. This is, of course, historically important, because we know that, as a result of the Valkyrie plot, there was agitation within the German military. The SS was deeply evil and was responsible for some of the most horrific atrocities in human history, and this is the case of an individual who voluntarily enlisted with the SS in 1943. He chose to enlist with the SS in 1943.

My colleague referenced the Nuremberg trials, and I just want to share a number of quotes from the Nuremberg trials so we understand what we are talking about here: “It is impossible to single out any portion of the SS which was not involved in these criminal activities.... The tribunal finds that knowledge of these criminal activities was sufficiently general to justify declaring that the SS was a criminal organisation to the extent hereinafter described.”

It also states:

There is evidence that the shooting of unarmed prisoners of war was the general practice in some Waffen SS divisions.... Units of the Waffen SS and Einsatzgruppen operating directly under the SS main office were used to carry out these plans. These units were also involved in the widespread murder and ill-treatment of the civilian population of occupied territories[.] Under the guise of combating partisan units, units of the SS exterminated Jews and people deemed politically undesirable by the SS, and their reports record the execution of enormous numbers of persons. Waffen SS divisions were responsible for many massacres and atrocities in occupied territories such as the massacres at Oradour and Lidice.

Chair, again, we have a situation in which the term “Nazi” is increasingly thrown around as a political insult on Twitter, on social media and in other places, even by political leaders, but we have, I think, a declining understanding of the horrors of this period and of the roots and causes of this totalitarian evil. I would commend to all members of the public the importance of understanding history and understanding this period in particular as we commit ourselves to the principle of “never again”.

As the government operations committee, we need to understand what happened as a matter of government operations. If members want to make the case that the Prime Minister is not responsible or that government operations are not associated with what happened, then they can make that case, but let's not bury it. Let's not hide it. Let's not pretend there aren't questions about the operations of government that need to be asked and considered. Now is not the time for excuses or for punting it to other committees. Government operations is the place to do it because it's a government operations issue and because there are already issues on the table at procedure and House affairs.

I hope members will consider this reality and take a stand for remembering and learning from history, getting to the bottom of what happened and holding powerful people accountable for this grave stain on our national reputation.

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks.

Before you start, Mrs. Vignola, we are actually still speaking on your amendment, which is to adjourn and to write the letter asking PROC to do it, and that will continue until there is no one else on the speaking list. I'm not sure if Mr. Johns and Mr. Kusmierczyk wish to speak on that still, which is to adjourn and write the letter to PROC, but if—

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Could we get clarification? I'm looking for clarification only.

I think we're speaking on the motion to adjourn first. Are they grouped together?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

It's one motion.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Okay. Well, if it's a motion to adjourn, then it goes to a vote.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

It's to adjourn and write a letter, which is debatable. This is the direction I'm receiving from the clerk.

Unless we have consent to have Mrs. Vignola withdraw that amendment.... It was to write the letter and adjourn, so that becomes not just a straight adjournment, which would force us to go straight to a vote on it.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

The motion I moved was to adjourn the debate. I said it was to consider the idea of writing a letter so that the motion could be referred to another committee. I did not say that this idea had to be included in the motion.

I want to make a motion to adjourn the debate, period. If my motion is considered to include the idea of thinking about writing a letter, I'll remove that part. I only want a motion to adjourn the debate. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We require UC from the committee to withdraw that.

I assume we have that, colleagues, to withdraw the whole thing—to adjourn the debate on the motion and to write the letter. We have UC, so we've withdrawn that.

(Amendment withdrawn)

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Now, Mrs. Vignola, you have the floor again because you put up your hand, and then we can get to Mr. Johns.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, it looks as though you've put down your hand.

Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola.