Evidence of meeting #85 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Mills  Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Anita Chan  Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Silvana Mansour  Supply Team Leader, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Angela Durigan  Manager, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Levent Ozmutlu  Director General, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Public Works and Government Services

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 85 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, which I like to call—and apparently Mr. Johns disagrees—“the mighty OGGO”.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting on the study of the ArriveCAN application.

As usual, please keep your earpieces away from the microphones, as it causes feedback and potential injury.

I'll give you a quick update on some documents that have been ordered.

Mr. Firth from GC Strategies has contacted the committee regarding bank records related to GC Strategies. We are expecting them to arrive today. Of course, they will then go out for translation.

Before we start, I am going to use the chair's prerogative. It is my wife's birthday.

3:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I know she's watching on CPAC.

3:35 p.m.

Voices

Happy birthday to you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I want to wish my wife Sasha a happy birthday. Related, of course, to OGGO, I am cheap. This is her birthday gift. I'll be bringing home a gift-wrapped copy of supplementary estimates (B).

3:35 p.m.

A voice

You are definitely cheap. How about a nice bottle of wine for your wife?

3:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I know.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I believe I might have informally communicated that I would like to see a list of the documents we asked for, the dates those documents were expected and whether we have received those documents as of yet. This is so we can remain current as to which documents were submitted and which are outstanding.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I suspect we'll have an update by the end of the meeting. We're waiting for a bit of information to come in on a couple of items.

We'll start with opening statements.

Mr. Mills, welcome back. You have five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Michael Mills Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to describe Public Services and Procurement Canada's role in supporting the Canada Border Services Agency on the ArriveCAN work.

I am joined today by three members of my team working under our professional services procurement directorate: Ms. Angela Durigan, manager, Silvana Mansour, team leader, and Anita Chan, procurement specialist.

I would highlight that it is extraordinary for frontline operational procurement officers to be called to testify in front of parliamentarians. I would like to thank them for joining me here today to support the committee’s study by providing more insight into procurement and the roles of procurement professionals.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge that the land on which we gather today is the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

In the earliest days of the pandemic, when the Government of Canada, like all other governments, was working flat out to respond to the pandemic, the procurement professionals at PSPC worked tirelessly to support departments and agencies to source supplies and suppliers in support of its response. To put things in perspective, this was in the early days of the pandemic, when there were lockdowns across the country, hospitals were operating beyond capacity and people were sick and dying. It was also a time when supply chains broke down. It was very difficult to source supplies and find service providers.

At this time, the Canada Border Services Agency analyzed their internal capacity. They did not have the capacity to develop an app with their staffing resources. As a result, CBSA contacted our department for an urgent requirement for professional services to support the development, integration and maintenance of an urgently needed tool to support the implementation of border measures in order to reduce the risk of importation and transmission of COVID-19. This would become the tool we now know as ArriveCAN.

CBSA looked at various options to deliver the application, including leveraging internal staff. However, this option was discarded, as they did not have the capacity or the technical know-how to develop an app of this complexity with the staff available. To find the IT support they needed, PSPC helped CBSA access resources under several PSPC-managed professional services methods of supply and put in place new contracts to fulfill the requirements, some of which were issued under emergency contracting authorities.

Based on information received from CBSA to date, a total of 46 contracts were used, in whole or in part, by CBSA to procure professional services and software licences to support, develop and maintain the ArriveCAN app. Thirty-one of these contracts were awarded by my department. Out of these 31 contracts, 19 were competitively awarded under pre-established supply arrangements; eight were to procure software licences where it was necessary to use sole-sourced contracts due to intellectual property rights or urgent need; and four were sole-sourced contracts for IT consulting services due to the pressing emergency.

To be clear, the government contracts regulations and the associated policy framework allow PSPC and departments to enter into sole-sourced contracts when there is a pressing emergency. The pandemic was such an emergency. Further, in order to support the execution of an effective and rapid government response to the COVID-19 global pandemic, TBS approved time-limited increases to those emergency contracting authority limits.

For 23 contracts, the work was authorized “as and when requested” through task authorizations. Most of these task-based contracts were put in place using the government’s pre-existing methods of supply.

These arrangements allow Canada to solicit proposals from a pool of pre-qualified suppliers, based on a list of pre-defined criteria, and to take advantage of pre-established contract terms and conditions.

These arrangements were established to add efficiency to the procurement process and to provide clients faster services with less collective administrative cost. By design, they provide a framework for client departments to put in place their own contracts and task authorizations much more easily and to administer their own contracts.

Under these arrangements, client departments develop statements of work and evaluation criteria for the selection process. If the contract value is under $3.75 million, the department can serve as the contracting authority, run the procurement process and put in place the contract. If it is over $3.75 million, PSPC administers the selection and contract award. In both cases, it is the client department that evaluates technical proposals and conducts verifications and clarifications. PSPC, as contracting authority, undertakes the financial assessment and applies the evaluation criteria to recommend a winner. We all verify company and individual security clearances at the time of the award. We also award the contract, once approved by the client department.

These contracts allowed CBSA to move quickly to bring in the resources they needed with the specific technical skills at different points in the development of the app.

Once the contract is in place, it is administered in a shared responsibility between PSPC—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm sorry, Mr. Mills. You're at your five minutes. Can you wrap up briefly?

3:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Michael Mills

I will wrap up very quickly.

I would just like to conclude by noting that IT contracting is a very important area also for the support of small businesses in Canada, indigenous businesses in particular. At this committee, you heard from Dalian, which is an indigenous business. Under the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses, federal departments and agencies can set aside contracts when there is known capacity among indigenous businesses. Dalian is such a business.

What is important to understand is that under the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses, 33% of contracted or subcontracted resources must be indigenous, not for a particular task authorization but for the overall value of the contract. Therefore, indigenous businesses can subcontract with non-indigenous businesses.

Again I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to be here. We are happy to take your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Mills.

Go ahead, Mrs. Kusie, for six minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Mills, you started off by saying it is extraordinary that we would generally have here, if I may say so, the middle managers, not the top officials. That absolutely is extraordinary, but what's also extraordinary is that Canadians paid $54 million for the ArriveCAN app. What is even more extraordinary than that is the RCMP investigation we have now, which has allegations of forged résumés, identity theft, collusion and fraudulent contracting. That's really extraordinary.

What's also extraordinary, Mr. Mills, is that the government has a history of not listening to women, for letting the men speak for women. You can talk to Jane Philpott if you want to know about that. You can talk to Jody Wilson-Raybould about that. You could also talk to Celina Caesar-Chavannes. We originally invited these three women, understanding that they would be perfectly capable of responding for themselves.

Finally, Mr. Mills, if you don't mind my saying so, this committee actually has a history, unfortunately, of senior executives within the government not necessarily telling us the truth in this committee. Unfortunately, I think it's a result of their political masters, but that's certainly a deeper conversation.

With all of that, Mr. Mills, I do believe I, as well as my colleagues, will be communicating mostly with the three other individuals we have brought here today, whom we originally asked for today, and as such—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Sorry. One moment, please.

Are we working again on translation?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Is the interpretation working now?

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Mr. Chair, can Mrs. Kusie go back 30 seconds?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We will, once we get it working.

Can you try it now, Mrs. Vignola?

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

It's working now.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We're fine now. We're at a minute and 30 seconds. We'll just move back about 30 seconds, and I'll make sure the time is reset.

Go ahead, Mrs. Kusie.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

That leaves me with four minutes and 30 seconds. Thank you so much.

What I was saying and what I was trying to explain to the two witnesses whom we originally had not invited was that unfortunately, as you well know, Mr. Johns, we have a history in this committee of senior government executives not being forthright with us and not necessarily telling us the truth.

I guess in this room I can frankly say that they were lying to us, as was evidenced by the recent story by Bill Curry in The Globe and Mail. You will then forgive us, please, if we direct our questions to the three other individuals—Ms. Durigan, Ms. Chan and Ms. Mansour—who are here today.

I'll start now.

Ms. Chan, why did you determine Botler's contract to be between Botler and the subcontractor?

3:45 p.m.

Anita Chan Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services

That would have started off with an investigation on our part, once we received the first complaint from Ms. Dutt alleging that her name and that of Mr. Mora were used in a TA, a task authorization, without their consent, and work was being conducted. The work was paid to the contractor on file, which was Dalian and Coradix in a joint venture.

When we inquired further with representatives of Coradix, they informed us that in fact the work provided from the resources was provided by a third party, which was GC Strategies.

From our perspective, because Dalian and Coradix did comply with what we asked for, we determined there was nothing out of the ordinary from our audit. They did not actually breach any contract or any terms of the contract. From then on, it was a dispute between the resources, GC Strategies and the contractor. Canada had no purview in this dispute.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I do disagree with that. The information I have here states:

In any subcontract other than a subcontract referred to in paragraph 2.(a), the Contractor must, unless the Contracting Authority agrees in writing, ensure that the subcontractor is bound by conditions compatible with and, in the opinion of the Contracting Authority, not less favourable to Canada than the conditions of the Contract, with the exception of requirements under the Federal Contractors Program for employment equity which only apply to the Contractor.

The information that I have here doesn't necessarily corroborate that.

Ms. Mansour, what made you confirm with Ms. Chan that the issue was between the contractor and the resources?

3:50 p.m.

Silvana Mansour Supply Team Leader, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Our contract was with Coradix and Dalian. Those two resources came to light as Coradix was subcontracting to GC Strategies, and GC Strategies proposed them as resources. We have no standing to interfere in subcontracting, because it's not the prime contractor with whom we have the contract.