Government Operations Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Levent Ozmutlu]

Thank you for the question.

The pre-award audit that's conducted by Indigenous Services Canada would determine that they meet the requirements of the program, which would be to adhere to all of those rules. PSPC would award those contracts based on the fact that these companies are on the indigenous business directory, which is managed by Indigenous Services Canada.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In other words, the fact that the requirements are met is all you need. If the company has a single first nations member, in this case a contractor, you need look no further. If a first nations person is involved, the requirements are met, regardless of whether that person actually plays a role, or is more of a front. The basic requirements are met, and that's good enough.

How can this be a way to generate economic value for first nations to achieve self-sufficiency?

[Levent Ozmutlu]

Thank you again for the question.

As indicated, Indigenous Services Canada is responsible for administering the program, and the PSPC procurement activity is in line with those policies. We do check to ensure that the companies with whom we contract are in fact on the indigenous business directory. That is our responsibility.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Johns is next, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In these contracts, Dalian, Coradix and GC Strategies are taking care of the most basic core administrative aspects of contracting for the government. You've affirmed this.

How is it possible that the federal government, with all its resources, doesn't have the capacity to execute its own security clearances and take care of its own invoicing and payments? How are we going to fix this?

Mr. Mills, I think you could take it.

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, the government does do projects by itself with its own staff. In other cases, they have time-limited projects for which it does not make business sense for them to directly engage resources within their departmental responsibilities to undertake the projects. We make these vehicles available on an optional basis to serve departments when they've decided on their own terms that it makes sense.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You've seen that in this situation it's turned into a disaster. Are you going to fix it? Are you going to come forward with changes?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned before, based on what we're seeing here today, we are looking very seriously at all these instruments. We're looking at what improvements we need to make to the instruments and what improvements we need to make in terms of training, delegations and whatnot to make sure that they are administered effectively in the future.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

My colleague across the table, Mr. Sousa, stated that none of the work can be subject to price increases once it's assigned. It's just private companies negotiating over the slices of pie, and the government can't increase the task value once it's assigned.

That's clearly not true. We've seen task prices absolutely balloon after they are [Technical difficulty—Editor] Botler that when Dalian was brought in through a pass-through and demanded 15% for doing so, CBSA was pissed, is what he said, at the resulting price increase. That email is public.

I want to clarify all of this on the record because I find it very inaccurate and I want Canadians to hear the truth on this.

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, as was mentioned earlier by some of our team members, when the contract is initially set up, there are rate guides within there, and in administering task authorizations subsequent to those contracts, they have to respect those limits.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm going to go back to the fact that we don't know...there is no limit on how many people can take a cut of a contract.

Have you done an analysis on this, on the ArriveCAN app, on how much commission went out in the total value of the $54 million spent on the ArriveCAN app?

[Michael Mills]

We have not undertaken that analysis.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Would it be something that PSPC could do and then report back to the committee?

[Michael Mills]

We have set fixed limits for the resources. We see what the invoicing—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm not asking—

[Michael Mills]

I do not have the information below what has been invoiced on the fixed rates to determine who got paid what. Those are internal business relationships between prime contractors and their subcontractors.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The public has every right to know the answer to that question.

I agree with my colleague, Mr. Kusmierczyk, about the value and appreciation we have for the work that you've done and the commitment all of you have made to Canada. It's really hard to be in a committee setting and be pressing you like this, but people are struggling and they're not getting the answers they need.

I have to say that I've heard that it isn't good for the morale of public servants when they hear a company is taking a $10-million slice of $55 million in contracts when they're not even experts in that field.

Are you looking at fixing it to bring in-house the capacity to replace these subcontractors that don't have the expertise to do that work on behalf of Canadians in-house themselves? Are you looking at doing that?

[Michael Mills]

Again, Mr. Chair, each project, each IT arrangement, is done within the authorities of the department. Departments will determine what's the best way to actually deliver that and what resources they can have.

I will just say that some projects require very specific skill sets that a single department would not typically have, nor would it make sense for them to engage and employ those resources for a significant period of time.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have time for one last question.

Ms. Dutt sent an email, and two weeks before that email, CBSA was looking at helping to support their project and actually looking at assigning additional resources. She sends an email; the next day, her contract gets cut.

Do you not see that as a reprisal from the Government of Canada? The timing obviously looks like it is a reprisal. Is this common?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, I cannot comment on that. I have no knowledge about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay.

Thanks, Mr. Johns.

We have Ms. Kusie, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Chan, I'm looking at the email from Ritika Dutt on Friday, May 26, in which she states: “While work was done for the implementation of Botler's solution in the CBSA, we did not agree or consent to be named on this TA or for the work to be implemented under this specific TA. Since our personal information has been used by Coradix to implement this Task Authorization, we are requesting that Coradix produce any documentation claiming to contain our consent to be named as resources in this TA. We also request documentation of alleged correspondence and feedback between Botler and Coradix during the implementation of this TA, including naming Patrick van Abbema as a resource based on “Botler's feedback””.

I then look at your response, Ms. Chan, on Monday, June 5, 2023, in an email back to Ms. Dutt, which states, “In light of the facts presented to us, Canada has determined this matter is an issue between the three parties, yourself, the Contractor Dalian Enterprises and Coradix Technology Consulting in joint venture, and the third party GC Strategies. No further action is required on our part.”

When you had that initial email from Ms. Dutt, whom did you consult with?

[Anita Chan]

Thank you for the question. I consulted with our legal adviser at Justice Canada.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay. Did you consult with anyone else on your team? Did you consult with Ms. Durigan? Did you consult with Mr. Mills?