Government Operations Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Parm, do you want to go if we have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Yes, I have one question here, and this one is to Mr. Ozmutlu.

How could the contracting process be modified to provide the federal government with more oversight on subcontractors? What trade-offs would be required to achieve this outcome?

[Levent Ozmutlu]

I think that as a result of these proceedings and investigations, we will take stock of whatever findings there are to determine what improvements are possible. We may seek more visibility on subcontracts.

Currently we rely on the private sector to organize themselves in order to deliver the goods and services that are being sought. In fact, many of the private sector entities are appreciative of that approach. They want to be nimble and they want to make their own business arrangements in order to supply the goods and services, but if there's a requirement for more visibility in our contracts, we can certainly look at mechanisms to implement that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have 15 seconds, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you for coming today and answering our questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bains.

Mr. Genuis, you have five minutes. We'll then follow up with Mr. Sousa.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To all the witnesses, was Minister Jaczek involved in any discussions? Did she receive any briefing notes or information or ask any questions regarding the ArriveCAN procurement?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, I am not recalling briefings that I participated in. I'm not aware of any that Minister Jaczek was involved in.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

She's the minister responsible for procurement and this was a relatively high-profile project, surely. Did she ask any questions? Would it have been normal to let the minister know what was going on?

I'm getting long pauses here. It's a little [Inaudible—Editor].

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, at the time, when a lot of these early procurements were going on for ArriveCAN, the focus, certainly in the early days of the pandemic, was on acquiring PPE. It was about getting vaccines, tests and testing services, and—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sir, I know a filibuster when I see one.

Was Minister Jaczek informed? Did she receive any briefing notes, to your knowledge?

It's a pretty simple question. Either she was kept completely in the dark and didn't ask any questions, or she was aware it was going on. Which is it?

[Michael Mills]

I believe she would have seen some products, such as a number of the contracts that would have been done under COVID authorities, but the initial contracts—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Does this include ArriveCAN or not?

[Michael Mills]

—that were put in place with GC Strategies predate Minister Jaczek.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Mills, can you answer the question?

Did Minister Jaczek ask any questions, ask for information or receive any information? Would that have been normal or expected?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, to my knowledge, I was not asked to provide any briefing on ArriveCAN to Minister Jaczek. Whether someone else in the department did, such as the deputy minister, I would not be aware.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You didn't see any briefing notes go up. You didn't get any questions from her or receive any information at all. [Inaudible—Editor] profoundly incurious about this relatively important project of the Government of Canada.

Does that seem surprising to you?

[Michael Mills]

I'm sorry. I just don't recall. I'd have to go back and look at my records.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Could you reply to that question in writing to this committee?

[Michael Mills]

Yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I want to confirm this again: Is it your department's job to ensure that taxpayers get value for money? Is that part of your mandate?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, it is.... Part of our mandate is to—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Excellent. Excellent. Great.

When you look at the fact that $54 million was spent on this app and, as I outlined earlier, that various comparable apps prepared under the previous Conservative government were done for much lower costs—generally under half a million dollars, or, in one case, going up to $3 million—you see that we are talking about orders of magnitude more money.

Did you look at this contract and say, “This isn't value for money”, or did you look at it and say, “Yes, it sounds fine” and stamp it?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, as was provided to this committee before, there were 46 different contracts used to produce the work related to ArriveCAN—