Government Operations Committee on Nov. 14th, 2023

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The type and size of company were important to you for the solution that involved the entire project being subcontracted. You are saying though that this did not occur to you, that it is not important and that you do not typically ask for details about the second option.

You can appreciate why we find it strange that the contract was then awarded to a company with two people working from their basement.

Why didn't you ask any questions when this report was submitted to you? You had the right to ask questions about the type of company that would find the expertise.

[Minh Doan]

Thank you for the question.

I don't know how many employees Deloitte has. I know it is a multinational. I was not referring to the number of employees, but the way—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Why didn't you ask any questions about the second option? Why didn't you ask about the type of company? I think that would have been only natural. That is my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Answer briefly, Mr. Doan.

[Minh Doan]

There was no company associated with the second option.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr. Johns, you have three and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Sir, can you tell me again what you think GC Strategies made after costs?

[Minh Doan]

I gave you my quick math depending on rates. We are not privy to the rates that these companies charge, etc.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What's the amount that you just quoted earlier in this committee when you said what you think they made on their $11-million contracts with ArriveCAN?

[Minh Doan]

In watching these appearances, I heard them say that their typical rates are between 15% and 30%. I did the math of 15% to 30% of $11 million. That is not a factual statement of mine. That is what I heard them say. I do not know what rates they charge, and the rates change depending on which subcontractor they deal with. To my knowledge, and it can be corrected, only PSPC would know that information. I do not know that information.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Let's say it's 20% on $11 million. That's a couple of million dollars. They've done $55 million with Canada as a whole outside of ArriveCAN in total. This is a $10-million reward for two individuals over a couple of years. Do you see anything wrong with that, given that they don't have an office or any staff?

We understand that it's value for money and that their job is to do screening and vetting, to connect to people. I mean, they altered resumés; they fraudulently changed resumés. That's how the screening went. In terms of vetting, no one signed any security briefing or screening forms. There was no NDA or confidentiality agreement that was ever signed.

This sounds like a disaster in terms of value for money. Would you not agree that there should be some changes?

[Minh Doan]

The allegations around a CV changing.... I'm not part of any of those investigations and can't speak to that.

In terms of the subcontracting model, this exists everywhere. It exists in the private sector, the construction business and others. It is a model that is common—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It shouldn't exist in the federal government.

Do you not believe you could hire a firm for $10 million—or, actually, two individual employees within the department—to do this kind of work?

[Minh Doan]

For ArriveCAN, we needed access very quickly, as I said, to many different types of skills, such as cybersecurity and others, that we didn't necessarily have at the agency.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm asking you this: Do you think you could hire someone with those kinds of skills for that kind of money?

[Minh Doan]

The Government of Canada is working very actively to increase our IT skills and resources, but we're in very hard competition with the private sector, which offers much more generous compensation packages for skills in cloud, artificial intelligence and others.

The other reality is that it takes the government a long time to hire somebody from the outside, so—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It doesn't for that kind of money.

Ms. Dutt sent an email—the second email—with allegations of misconduct in December 2021. Botler's project was terminated the very next day. I have to say that the timing of this stinks of reprisal, especially since, just a couple of weeks earlier, CBSA was telling Botler they were assigning new resources to aid the project.

What changed? Why was Botler's project terminated?

I asked PSPC this question, but they couldn't answer. If you can't, I'd like CBSA to answer this in writing.

[Minh Doan]

From what I've heard in these committee appearances, there were no allegations in 2021 raised by Botler. Mr. Utano spoke to this. There was a contracting dispute. PSPC was engaged, and the issue was resolved, from what I understand, fairly quickly.

The allegations of wrongdoing by Botler surfaced in November 2022—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Resolved? They were turfed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, I'm afraid.

Mr. Genuis has six minutes. Then we'll finish with Mr. Jowhari for six minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

During his testimony one week ago, Mr. MacDonald said the following:

I believe Mr. Mendicino was not happy. Mr. Mendicino wasn't there when ArriveCAN kicked off and when all of this was going on, but there was a lot of news about ArriveCAN.

Minh was worried that either he or Jonathan Moor was going to get fired, so he was talking about somebody's head on a platter. He said that, because Jonathan Moor had made a whole bunch of mistakes from an accounting perspective about how much ArriveCAN cost, it could go his way, or it could go Mr. Doan's way, because Mr. Doan was the CIO at the time. Then he turned.... We were on the phone, but he stopped the conversation and said, “You know, Cam, if I have to, I'm going to tell the committee that it was you.”

Mr. Doan, in that section of his testimony, was Mr. MacDonald telling the truth?

[Minh Doan]

Thank you for the question.

I did not informMr. Mendicino of that. As I told you, last year, there was no allegation—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Doan, I'm going to jump in here.

I asked you a very simple question. We've had you for almost two hours and you've struggled to give direct answers to simple questions. I'm not going to go off this one.

In that section of his testimony, was Mr. MacDonald being truthful, yes or no?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, I'm being very careful about my statements, because I'm under oath. I understand what that means—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You still have an obligation to answer questions before a parliamentary committee. You have an obligation to answer those questions, sir. Not doing so is contempt of Parliament.

Again, were Mr. MacDonald's statements truthful, yes or no?