Evidence of meeting #86 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was macdonald.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I am trying to answer the question.
There are different elements of that quote you read to me, in terms of what is truthful and what is—
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Were some elements of that quote untruthful, then?
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Last year, nobody was looking to—
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Are there any elements of that quote, sir, that are not accurate?
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can get you that in writing.
Can you repeat the quote for me?
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Sir, I have limited time. The quotation was directly from Mr. MacDonald's testimony. You heard it.
Was Mr. MacDonald's statement truthful—
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Mr. Genuis, I'm going to interrupt you for a second.
Please repeat the quote. I will allow the extra time.
Mr. Doan, I'm going to read right from the swearing-in of witnesses part in Procedure and Practice. It states, “refusal to answer questions or failure to reply...may [result in] a charge of contempt”. This has been repeated to you several times today. There have been a lot of direct questions. I normally don't do this, but there have been very specific questions, and we'd like very specific answers. Taxpayers deserve that. Canadians deserve that. Parliament deserves that.
Mr. Genuis, I'm going to turn it back over to you. If you want to repeat the quote, I will not take away your time.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
The quote is:
I believe Mr. Mendicino was not happy. Mr. Mendicino wasn't there when ArriveCAN kicked off and when all of this was going on, but there was a lot of news about ArriveCAN.
Minh was worried that either he or Jonathan Moor was going to get fired, so he was talking about somebody's head on a platter. He said that, because Jonathan Moor had made a whole bunch of mistakes from an accounting perspective about how much ArriveCAN cost, it could go his way, or it could go Mr. Doan's way, because Mr. Doan was the CIO at the time. Then he turned.... We were on the phone, but he stopped the conversation and said, “You know, Cam, if I have to, I'm going to tell the committee that it was you.”
In that section of his testimony, sir, was Mr. MacDonald being fully truthful? Answer yes or no.
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
No.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Which parts of that quotation are not true, from your perspective?
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I've written them in order.
The first one is about Mr. Mendicino not being happy. I would not have known that. I would not have been privy to that. I don't know where Mr. MacDonald got that. I'm not saying that it came from me—it did not come from me. I was not briefing the minister or the minister's office.
Number two—
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. Let's jump in on that point specifically.
You're saying you didn't have a direct conversation with Mr. Mendicino. Did somebody else tell you that Mr. Mendicino wasn't happy, and did you relay that information to Mr. MacDonald?
All he said was that you said it. Did you, in fact, say what he says you said?
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I do not recall saying that about Mr. Mendicino or relaying any information that would have come to me. At that time, that was not the concern.
Can I answer numbers two and three?
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Do you recall being told at any point that Minister Mendicino was not happy?
1:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
No. I do not recall that.
Can I answer two and three?
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
Could you go on with the other errors in his statement that you believe were made?
1:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Number two is that either I or the CFO would be fired. I had no fear for my job this time last year. I stand behind the decision. I think it's value for money. I don't think that at any point in time I was afraid for my job. I don't think a public servant doing their job delivering on something like ArriveCAN would be fired—
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
Did you at any point tell Mr. MacDonald that you would tell the committee it was he who made the decision?
1:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for that.
I did not threaten to blame him. I was here on October 24. I had an opportunity to do so, with all the allegations around his name, and I still did not.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You're suggesting that this conversation between you and Mr. MacDonald is entirely fabricated.
1:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I had a conversation with Mr. MacDonald. I reached out to him. There's evidence of this. I reached out and asked him for facts and data, because he was there at the time. I had the conversation. The point of the conversation was to help us understand who invited GC Strategies into ArriveCAN the first time.
We absolutely had a conversation.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. You're saying these various particular points are not accurate.
With respect to the minister's office, did you have any information shared with you about the perspective of the minister or the minister's office in relation to this procurement?
1:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I do not recall anything from that perspective, either from the minister's office or from the minister. I was not briefing the minister on this topic.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Did you receive any direction along these lines regarding Deloitte, regarding the selection or regarding how people felt about it, from Mr. Ossowski or Ms. O'Gorman at any point?
1:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I do not recall getting any direction on any of these matters. This would be in terms of technical direction. This would not be something that a deputy minister would normally get involved in.