Evidence of meeting #91 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anita Anand  President of the Treasury Board
Marie-Chantal Girard  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Employee Relations and Total Compensation, Treasury Board Secretariat
Annie Boudreau  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Samantha Tattersall  Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Stephen Burt  Chief Data Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Performance Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, strangers. We haven't seen each other for a long time here at OGGO, so welcome back. Welcome to meeting number 91 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5) and the order of reference adopted by the House of Commons on Thursday, November 9, 2023, the committee is meeting on the study of the supplementary estimates (B) for 2023-24.

I'll remind you to please not put earpieces next to microphones, as it causes feedback and potential injury.

Before I turn things over to Minister Anand, I would like to wish our colleague Kelly Block a happy birthday. Happy birthday, Mrs. Block.

We have a five-minute opening statement by Minister Anand.

Please go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Anita Anand President of the Treasury Board

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that the lands on which we are gathered are part of the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

This is my first appearance before this committee as President of the Treasury Board. I want to thank you so much for having me here today to discuss supplementary estimates (B).

Today, I’m accompanied by officials from the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.

I’m very pleased to be here. Thank you for the work you’ve done.

I know that one of your priorities is to ensure that public funds are spent prudently.

That's a role I take very seriously, along with my department. This is a time when Canadians across the country are examining their pocketbooks, and the Government of Canada is no different. We are ensuring taxpayer dollars are being used efficiently. We're investing in priorities that matter most to Canadians. Starting in 2023-24, the government is refocusing government spending so that $15.4 billion over five years, and $4.1 billion annually thereafter, will support Canadians' most pressing needs.

As these estimates detail, we've already reduced travel and professional service spending by $500 million this year, and reductions for the 2024-25 year and beyond will be included in the main estimates around March 1 of next year. These reductions will be sought from about 80 organizations across government, but there are exceptions. Let me be clear: There will be no reductions to the Canadian Armed Forces, direct benefits to Canadians, or transfers to indigenous communities or other orders of government. In addition, this refocusing of spending proposals is being carefully assessed to ensure they are sustainable and do not create future funding pressures. While we identify reallocations of spending from across organizations, the work of government has to continue, and this requires ongoing funding.

I’d now like to turn to the spending requests in Supplementary Estimates (B).

These estimates present additional budget spending of $24.6 billion. Of this amount, $3.9 billion represents an increase in planned statutory spending, meaning that it is already authorized under existing legislation. Therefore, in Supplementary Estimates (B), the government is seeking approval for $20.7 billion in additional voted spending.

This includes significant investment in the implementation of settlement agreements and corresponding compensation for Indigenous peoples, military assistance to Ukraine, and compensation and benefits for the federal public service and the Canadian Armed Forces.

Important items requested in this year's supplementary estimates (B) include $5 billion to the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs to fund the Restoule settlement agreement; $2 billion to the Treasury Board to fund recently established collective bargaining agreements for over 200,000 employees; and approximately $1 billion to the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Parks Canada to settle claims and litigation relating to land.

In keeping with this government's commitment to transparency, I note that additional details and context, beyond what is contained in the tabled documents, are available online. Reporting tools such as GC InfoBase and the Open Government portal allow users to easily see the authorities approved by Parliament, ensuring parliamentarians and Canadians alike know how public funds are being invested on their behalf.

Thank you for the invitation to appear today. I’m very pleased to be with you this afternoon.

My team and I are now pleased to answer your questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start with Mrs. Kusie for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, for being with us here today.

Minister, yesterday it was reported by CBC that 13 federal agencies are now using spyware normally associated with the intelligence world. The article stated, “The tools in question can be used to recover and analyze data found on computers, tablets and mobile phones, including information that has been encrypted and password-protected.” None of these federal departments fulfilled the required privacy impact assessment necessary to determine what privacy risks exist by using these technologies. These include texts, emails and search histories.

Minister, why is your government so hell-bent on invading the privacy of Canadians?

3:50 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Actually, I would not agree with the premise of the question, although I will say that we need to make sure—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Why would you not agree with it, Minister? This falls under your purview under section 3.3 of the directive on privacy impact assessment, so I'd like to hear from you, please. Why do you not believe that this falls under your purview?

3:50 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

I believe the role of the President of the Treasury Board is to put in place directives and other policies that guide the public service as well as ministerial roles across the public sector in the—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

You're saying “guide” the public service, Minister, but they should also protect them.

What are you going to do now that this report about these 13 agencies is out there? It's not only these public servants who are having their privacy invaded, but also everyone they have communicated with by text or email, including their search histories. If they've looked up, say, an illness that their child perhaps has or anything like that, that information is now potentially in the hands of the government, so, Minister, now that we are aware of this, what are you going to do?

3:50 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Perhaps I could just clarify.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I'm finishing my question, Minister.

Explain to Canadians, please, what you are going to do now as a result of this gross invasion of their privacy.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I'm riveted by the questions that are being asked, but I want to hear the President of the Treasury Board respond, so if you can provide the minister with—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

That is not a point of order, and I would just ask that we not interrupt people with non-points of order, please. I understand what you're saying, but it's not a point of order.

Everyone, I ask that you stop interrupting each other on fake points of order.

Please continue, Mrs. Kusie.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much.

Minister, I'll give you again an opportunity to tell Canadians, to tell the public service, what you are doing right now to protect their privacy. What are you doing after seeing this report yesterday?

3:50 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

Our government will always take all necessary steps to ensure that public servants are complying with all laws, including privacy laws and the protection of our employees' personal data. Deputy heads of federal institutions are responsible for initiating the directive on privacy and they will make sure that continues to occur.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

To add insult to injury beyond this terrible privacy breach, earlier this week the chief information officer of Canada resigned. This is an industry-tested individual who impressed me every single time she was at committee. She had two years to begin to formulate this plan for digital government, which, according to social media this week, Minister, you claim to be committed to. You claim to want to take a leadership role in it, and yet your chief information officer resigned this week.

Do you take personal responsibility for the lack of direction, the lack of leadership that she required in an effort to provide the entire framework of technology within the public service for Canadians? This has serious implications for Canadians in terms of service delivery. What's your response to that, Minister?

3:50 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

I'd first like to thank the chief information officer for her excellent work for the Government of Canada. When she was hired, it was wonderful to have such expertise from the private sector come to inform our work.

This is a whole-of-government approach. We have multiple systems upgrades under way, and I will continue to work with Minister Beech, who is the new responsible Minister of Citizens' Services, in terms of the additional upgrades to our digitization and to our systems. Make no mistake: We are very much committed to making government processes more efficient for the Canadian public.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I'm incredibly concerned. This was, as I said, an industry-tested individual. Every time she was before committee, I thought, “This is fantastic. I believe in this individual and I believe that this individual, this public servant, has the capacity to come up with a digital plan and a digital solution across government.” We need 500 more IT professionals like her to get things to a place where they need to be.

As we saw as well, the reports of the Auditor General have said that digital government is really suffering, as is service delivery for Canadians, as a result of our lagging in digital solutions. Please tell Canadians, then, what your plan is, now that your top technology officer, your CIO, has said, “I can't fix this. I can't solve this”. What's your plan, Minister?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

You have about 30 seconds, please.

3:55 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

We agree with the recommendations of the Auditor General and we are accelerating and expanding the use of Canadian digital service across government. The work is ongoing.

I have been in this post just since the end of July, and since that time, I have taken a very aggressive approach to making sure that we undertake systems delivery across this government for the benefit of the citizens of Canada and especially the Canadian taxpayer.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sousa, go ahead, please.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Minister, to you and your team, for being here.

I really appreciate the opportunity to hear more about the tremendous role that Treasury Board plays. It's essential in the mechanics of government, and certainly we appreciate the critical role you play in interacting with many departments and in maintaining some fiscal impact that's positive as we go forward. I appreciate some of the work that's being done concurrently in that regard.

In regard to the estimates, I appreciate your illustrating those major expense items. One that stood out was the $500 million in funding for Ukraine. This obviously is a significant addition to resources since the war started, although not all parties seem to be taking the support of Ukraine as seriously, given the recent Conservative vote against the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement implementation. Can you please tell us more about this item and share your views on supporting Ukraine?

3:55 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

I thank the honourable member for the question.

I will say that it was one of the honours of my life to be able to lead the first iteration of military aid to Ukraine against the further Russian invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022. I will say that Canada stands unequivocally shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine.

The increased investments in military assistance to Ukraine signal this, and the $500 million in the supplementary estimates (B) will enable additional military aid for Ukraine to be purchased and delivered: for example, cameras for drones and contributions to the Leopard 2 maintenance centre in Poland, which I assisted in setting up when I was in the role of Minister of National Defence.

The work to assist Ukraine is ongoing. It is disappointing that not all members of the House voted in favour of the Ukraine-Canada Free Trade Agreement, but I will say that it had, until that time, been very fruitful for all members of the House to agree and to work together on military aid to Ukraine.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you.

I notice some heckling on the side there, so not everybody agrees with regard to support to Ukraine as well.

It's essential that we make these efforts going forward, Mr. Chair.

My next question is in regard to the large instalment of funding that has been directed towards indigenous settlements and programs on issues ranging from residential schools to land claims and righting historic wrongs in Treaty 8. What does this suggest about the values underlined in these estimates?

3:55 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Anita Anand

We as a government are deeply committed to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's report and the recommendations of that report, especially making sure that reconciliation remains a priority for this government.

The settlements you mentioned in your question reflect an ongoing process of recognition, of healing and essentially of addressing historic injustices. This is critical to carry out our work together with indigenous peoples. There is much more work to do, of course, but we are resolute in terms of wanting to make sure this work gets done in partnership and in the spirit of reconciliation.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Minister, given that this is your first time appearing before OGGO in your new role and that you've had a number of substantive roles in the past that have affected some of the work we do in this committee, can you give us some of your other priorities in your tenure as the TBS president?