Government Operations Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's okay. We'd like to know today's amount.

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

We could get back to you on the amounts.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That would be great.

Mr. Chair, is that okay for the committee, that they provide in writing the outstanding amount owed to employees?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

And also the overpayments....

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We're hoping that the government can prioritize paying the outstanding—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me interrupt on the date. I think it is noted in the public accounts.

Up to what point will you have that information that you can provide? What date would be covered under the information you're providing to us?

[Karen Cahill]

Mr. Chair, the information you have in the public accounts is up until March 31, 2023, so—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, if you're updating it for Mr. Johns, how far are you tabulating?

[Karen Cahill]

We will work with PSPC to determine the gap between what is provided in the public accounts and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

With regard to resources to get people paid who earned their wages, you work alongside them and you're one of them. I thank you for your work, and I hope that if any of you are owed money, you get paid before we start going after those who were overpaid.

I really appreciate that you're going to make recommendations to the minister through Treasury Board Secretariat on things that you can do around outsourcing.

The first question I have is on the commissions. As we learned through the ArriveCAN and GC Strategies fiasco, with the amount of commissions at 15% to 30%, GC Strategies, a two-person outfit with no staff and no office, which had about $55 million in overall government contracts, would have netted at least $11 million if they were around the 20% mark. This is outrageous. They then subcontracted to other outsourcing companies, and some of them have even taken commissions. One deputy minister who was here actually said there's no limit to the amount of commissions being paid.

Have you made a recommendation to the minister to put a cap on commissions?

If you could cut outsourcing by 4.2%—the PBO even agreed with me—that would cover the whole cost of extending the CEBA loan program. It would support 250,000 businesses that closed their doors to protect public health, for one more year, so that they can get through the next year with a recession and dealing with an inflation crisis.

Is that something you're going to make a recommendation on?

[Samantha Tattersall]

Thank you for the question.

As I was saying, most of these professional services come through supply arrangements at PSPC. PSPC has committed to reviewing those supply arrangements.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's great.

[Samantha Tattersall]

I've communicated with them as part of their review, and I want to tell you what I said. I said that as part of the review—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I am going to run out of time.

As New Democrats, we're hoping that you're ready to put a stop to it.

[Samantha Tattersall]

We asked them to look at the profit margin as part of that review.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We want you to put small businesses and Canadians ahead of CEOs and these big, outsourced, highly paid consulting firms.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Johns.

Go ahead, Mrs. Kusie, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I mentioned in my opening comments to the minister my concern about the departure of the chief information officer. I thought I would follow up on some of the departmental plans, given her departure.

The Auditor General report that was tabled in October stated that although the goal is for 60% of IT systems to be healthy by 2030, at the snail's pace of progress, only 45% of systems—less than half—will be healthy at that time. There has been a 1% increase in progress each year since this target was made.

What is your plan to revitalize the government's failing digital systems, please?

[Stephen Burt, Chief Data Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Performance Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

We looked at the Auditor General's report. We agreed with all of the recommendations in there. We are working with them on what we can do to work alongside departments to make sure that we can make these changes as swiftly and efficiently as possible.

Given the size of the IT portfolio, the diversity of departments and agencies and the type of work they do, it's a fairly complicated undertaking, as I'm sure you'll understand. It requires some diligent planning and some close oversight by the team within OCIO at Treasury Board.

We have a government-wide IT modernization strategy that we're working on in response to the OAG's plan, which aligns very nicely with what we would like to do in any case, to help ensure that we have the right investments of time, expertise and funding to deliver more efficiency in those systems. We're going as fast as we can in that space and making sure that we are closely monitoring the performance of existing systems at the same time to ensure that we continue to support Canadians.

I'd also add my appreciation for the kind words on the retirement of Ms. Luelo, who has been excellent.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes. Certainly, as I said, I was incredibly impressed with her and her testimony here.

The percentage of Government of Canada websites that provide digital services to citizens securely is currently at 69%, which is a drop from the 75% of secure services last year. Can you indicate the reason for this drop and your plan to correct this drop, please?

[Stephen Burt]

I would have to take a closer look at specifically what that drop is attributed to. If their services are being delivered but not being delivered securely, it would mean, to my mind, that there is no need for them to be delivered securely. The appropriate privacy and security safeguards in our systems are foremost in our minds when we put them into place to serve citizens.

I would have to take a closer look to see what the change in percentage is. It may not be a drop in the sense of not meeting the target; it may simply be that the level of security that's required has changed.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

Both the Parliamentary Budget Officer and the Auditor General have recommended that there be an overview on the centralization of financial information in the digital transformation of government. Perhaps you have knowledge as to why there's been no action on these recommendations to date.

[Stephen Burt]

Is that the recommendation to centralize...?

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

There was an overview of the centralization of financial information in the digital transformation of government.