Government Operations Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

The next question I have is on the new restorative engagement program for the federal public service that was announced last month. How do you envision that this will foster diversity and address systemic issues like discrimination and harassment in the workplace?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

Thank you very much.

As part of our commitment to really foster an inclusive, harassment-free and discrimination-free workplace, we look at a number of measures and efforts. One of them is to ensure that, going forward, we do change the culture and address systemic barriers, and we don't repeat the practices and biases of the past.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

That's why the restorative—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but that is our time.

I'm going to go to Mrs. Vignola and then Mr. Johns. I'm combining their last two and a half minutes. It will be five minutes and five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I’ll go back to my last question, which was about funding for leadership provided during the transition to cloud technology.

First of all, is the transition underway or is it complete?

[Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

The transition is indeed underway.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

We’re talking about funds for solid leadership here. This is not done by an animal, a robot or a computer. People provide this leadership. Are we to understand that the $2,271,300 is earmarked for a person or persons who provide leadership?

[Karen Cahill]

The funds are indeed earmarked for the Office of the Chief Information Officer within the Treasury Board Secretariat to enable it to assign individuals to provide leadership for the implementation of a cloud strategy. These individuals are working with Statistics Canada, the Department of Finance, the Communications Security Establishment as well as Shared Services Canada to put in place a cloud computing funding model as well as a strategy for the future of cloud computing in the federal government.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So will that $2,271,300 be used to hire people or to hire consultants or subcontractors?

[Karen Cahill]

It will be used to hire people.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So these are people for the government.

[Karen Cahill]

The people are already there. It’s money we need to offset some of these people’s salaries. If I’m not mistaken, it’s around 18 FTEs. A large part of that is to pay those people’s salaries, not to pay for professional services.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So we aren’t talking about bonuses. This is really to pay their salaries.

[Karen Cahill]

That’s correct.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

This brings me to the funds for managing human resources, payroll and pension issues and solutions. Again, issues and solutions are not managed by animals, robots or computers, but by people.

Is that $8,752,278 also used to pay employees?

[Karen Cahill]

Some of it is used to pay employees’ salaries, but some of it is used to pay for technology licenses or to hire consultants who provide very specialized services that aren’t offered by anyone within the department or anywhere else in the public service right now. So it’s a combination of the two.

The truth is, the majority of these funds are used to pay employees’ salaries, including the fifteen or so people who work in the claims office, which reports to Treasury Board Secretariat and handles claims related to problems with the Phénix payroll system. I know this subject is of particular interest to you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

That’s true, there are still many compensation claims to be settled. My office dealt with some of those. It takes forever to get answers to our questions and, more importantly, for people to get answers to their questions about their particular issues.

I see you’re just asking for funds earmarked for a Phoenix deal. Vote 1b is $5,506,322 and Vote 10b is $17,600,000.

First of all, how much money has been paid out thus far to compensate people?

Next, how many more people will need to be compensated because this system isn’t working?

Finally, I’d like to know what stage the second-generation payroll system project has reached, the next version of Phoenix as it were, in the hope that it won’t rise from the ashes and that the next system will truly be better.

[Karen Cahill]

The funds you see in Supplementary Estimates (B) for the Treasury Board Secretariat are being used to reimburse class action plaintiffs. We have not yet disbursed those funds to the plaintiffs, as we are awaiting a decision from the Quebec Court of Appeal. Once that decision is rendered, we can begin the restitution process.

Of course…

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Sorry, but that is your time, Ms. Cahill.

Mr. Johns, you are next, please, for five minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm glad we're on the subject of Phoenix. We heard on Tuesday that the cost of Phoenix has ballooned to $3.5 billion. That's quite a jump from $2.3 billion, and it's obviously a big jump from when the Conservatives recommended Phoenix and it was supposed to save us $80 million a year.

The Liberals continue to carry on with this privatization scheme. What's the plan? What is the budget to fix Phoenix? Is there even a number? You're Treasury Board. How much are you allocating for and looking at in future years? Are we going to hit $5 billion or $10 billion? What's the plan?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

Perhaps I can begin on the update, and if my colleagues want to, they can supplement on the financials.

As you know, the solution is currently being worked on by our colleagues at PSPC/Shared Services. The government is currently assessing the viability of the commercial HR and pay solutions. There was a phase one on research and experimentation, and phase two is on recommendation and investment decisions. This is the phase we're in.

As of late June, they were testing solutions and they were completing that phase. Later, this initiative will provide evidence-based assessments on the robustness of these solutions to deliver on such a large population.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

Has it been identified how much money is owed to workers for work that they've done and how much money has been overpaid?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

These amounts fluctuate on a daily basis with the population.