Government Operations Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[Annie Boudreau]

If you would like an answer regarding the Treasury Board Secretariat specifically, the Chief Financial Officer, Ms. Cahill, can also provide more details.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understood the answer. Thank you.

I also see, for Treasury Board, an amount of $2,271,300 corresponding to funds for leadership provided during the transition to cloud technology. So we’re talking about people who are to provide leadership. Does this fund represent additional salaries for people who are responsible for the transition?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that is our time. You'll have to get back to us in the next round or perhaps in writing, if you could just follow up with Mrs. Vignola.

Mr. Johns, go ahead, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm going to go back to the question on KPMG. You hired them and spent $669,650 to develop recommendations that could be considered as options to ensure that Canadian tax dollars were being used efficiently. That was around consultants and whether or not to hire them.

I asked you about deliverables and you said that you hadn't heard about those, but the due dates for these task authorizations were August 25 and October 31 of this year. What did KPMG tell you? Did they tell you to spend more money or less?

[Anita Anand]

I'd like to clarify that departments are able to seek outside consultation as they see fit. The contract with KPMG was awarded in 2022, long before the mandate to reduce outsourcing spending. What I, as minister, have done since coming into this role just a short time ago is to release a guide so that there are key considerations for public servants when they are procuring professional services through these contracts. I am—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I was just looking for an answer on what they told you, and I'm still not getting it.

[Anita Anand]

I am the person who is responsible for putting in place the directives and the guidelines. That is the role I play. Mr. Wilkinson has purview over the matter you raised.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'll just do another question on the Order Paper and hopefully get the answer.

I'm going to go to your commitment. Your government is talking about selling public lands and public buildings. We've heard Conservatives talk about doing that. We saw the Doug Ford government doing that with the Greenbelt, and we are going to see billions of dollars ending up in the pockets of a handful of developers.

How do we have certainty that this is not going to happen here in Canada? I hear the commitment that 20% is going to go to affordable housing; 100% should be going to affordable housing, and our belief is that public lands belong in public hands. Will you consider leasing all public lands for affordable housing instead of selling them? The developer-driven model has not solved affordable housing anywhere in the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Could we have a brief answer, please?

[Anita Anand]

Thank you for the question.

I know Minister Duclos and the department at PSPC are considering all options. There are existing legislative and policy guidelines that, from a governance perspective, guide all of the matters you raised in your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mrs. Kusie, go ahead, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, I'm sure you have seen the economic report out today. The economy shrank by 1.1% in the third quarter. Our deficit is currently at $40.1 billion. Debt servicing is now at $46.5 billion, which is more than we spend on health, as pointed out by my leader.

Minister, I said this to your predecessor when she came to committee previously. Fundamentally, inflation comes down to the Treasury Board, because these rates being so high and this inflation being so high are results of government spending. All of the money from the government, Minister, goes through you. You are the one who signs the cheques for the release of these funds.

You will note, Minister, that she is no longer in your chair. You are there now, so I am asking you whether you take personal responsibility for this terrible situation we're in now with these record-high inflation rates and record-high interest rates, which we are now starting to see permeate the economy as, for example, with the TD announcement yesterday on the loss of thousands of jobs. This is only the beginning of it, Minister.

How do you, as President of the Treasury Board, respond with respect to the spending record of your government?

[Anita Anand]

The Government of Canada is actually on a strong fiscal track, contrary to the implication in your question. We have an AAA credit rating, which is an objective evaluation of our fiscal situation. We have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7 and we have the lowest debt in the G7—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, you said we have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio, but it's disingenuous when the nominal states otherwise: $80,000 per U.S. citizen and only $50,000 here in Canada. I think it's very disingenuous to say that.

I'll lay out the facts.

For the $15 billion that you promised you would find by October 2 but didn't even make any announcement or report on doing so, only a paltry $500 million this year...which, by the way, is only 2.03% of the additional $24.6 billion of new spending in the 2023 budget. The $500 million of savings is only 2.31% of the record-high proposed authorities for professional and special services, which sits at $21.6 billion. The $15.4 billion in cuts over the next five years is only 11.69% of the deficits from this fiscal year throughout the next five years, Minister.

With that, I'm going to pass it to my colleague Larry Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, GC Strategies, a two-person consulting firm operating out of their basement and producing no product or IT services, received $44 million in two years. Of that, $11 million went to ArriveCAN alone. GC Strategies, under criminal investigation for theft, fraud and forgery for the last 10 months, has still been awarded contracts by the CBSA, notwithstanding their suspension of contracting services to GC Strategies.

Why has the Treasury department, your department, not banned GC Strategies from all contracting from all government departments?

[Anita Anand]

It's actually misleading to say that we are not finding the $15 billion over five years in the—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Please answer my question, Minister.

I asked you a question. You're responding to my colleague Stephanie Kusie's question.

[Anita Anand]

I didn't have a chance to respond.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I would like a response to my question.

I have literally less than one minute, so out of respect, can you please answer my question?

[Anita Anand]

The role of the Treasury Board, as I mentioned, is to ensure that the practices, procedures and guidelines are in place for public servants and their managers to follow. That is why I implemented and released the guidelines on procurement strategies, so that guide—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The question is, why have you not banned GC Strategies across the board? It was $11 million of taxpayer funds for doing nothing, and they are under criminal investigation.

What does it take, Minister, for you to respect the taxpayer dollar?

[Anita Anand]

I would like to reiterate that my role as Treasury Board president is to ensure that, from a governance perspective, there are policies, practices and procedures in place to make sure there are responsible procurement practices in the public service. Within just four and a half months of being appointed, I took some steps to ensure that this was the case by issuing the guidelines for procurement from third parties, as well as undertaking a spending review.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, Minister. Perhaps one of your colleagues can follow up on that.

Mr. Jowhari is next, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister and officials, welcome to our committee.

Minister, I'm going to give you the opportunity to talk about the recently released manager's guide. You made a reference to it about three times, but you never got a chance to finish, so here's your time to finish. Also, if you could add some commentary around releasing a guide to reduce consulting services, that would be good as well.

Thank you. The floor is yours.