Evidence of meeting #10 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was i've.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Joël Lightbound  Minister of Government Transformation, Public Works and Procurement
Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Lee  Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Ryder  Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to come back to parcel deliveries in different communities that I've visited, such as Îles de la Madeleine. After the September 25 announcement, people needing an ostomy, for example, didn't know how they would get their medication, since Canada Post was the only one that delivered to their area. It was the same thing for citizens of Kuujjuaq or the Basse‑Côte‑Nord. The competition is so strong that they're worried Canada Post will focus only on mail delivery and drop parcel delivery.

The fact that we are talking about an essential service is reassuring. There's no plan to tweak efficiency or security in the delivery of both letters and parcels, but how much will that cost? How much are we willing to add to the deficit for an essential service?

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

I would say as little as possible. Canada Post's mission is basically to offer financially sustainable services. It's in its letters patent. However, it has become apparent over the years that Canada Post is unable to meet that goal. That is why the government had to inject $1 billion in the corporation and why it will need to inject more money over the coming years. I believe we need to inject as little as possible. Canada Post must find ways to significantly improve its efficiency in carrying out its essential mission. One way is to remove the constraints that I mentioned in my opening statement and that we've been talking about.

It's important to point out that Canadians and Quebeckers care about Canada Post, especially in remote areas like Îles de la Madeleine, as you said, because it's their only link to the rest of the world. Thank you for raising that point.

That said, everyone understands that bailing out Canada Post year after year means less money for other essential government services. I think that would also be a concern for Mr. Boulerice. Resources are limited. That's why I think Canada Post needs a transformation. There is a path to get there and that is the path we've asked the corporation to take.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I have a lot of questions, but it seems there are still a lot of things to clarify. I know there are 20 days left, but I think the president and CEO must appear before the committee to explain what he's been tasked with. What we've heard is somewhat reassuring. However, many aspects still need to be clarified, including service.

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

Like I said, we've set clear conditions: Canada Post must protect service in rural, remote and indigenous communities. Once I receive the corporation's plan, I'll be happy to share it with you, Ms. Gaudreau, considering your interest in protecting the regions.

They have to get this right.

I will make sure they do.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Let's hope so.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Madame Gaudreau.

Minister, thanks for joining us again.

Colleagues, we'll suspend for a couple of moments to bring in our new witnesses.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon everyone. We are back. Thanks for your patience.

We have witnesses today: Mr. Ryder and Mr. Lee.

I understand you both have opening statements.

Why don't we start with you, Mr. Lee, as you are virtual? Then we'll go to Mr. Ryder.

You have five minutes each, please. I'll ask you to watch your clocks. Thanks.

Ian Lee Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I'll give my disclosures to the honourable members. Number one, I don't belong to or donate money to any political party or display any lawn signs.

Second, I completed my 850-page Ph.D. thesis in 1989 on Canada Post, using every annual report of the then post office department, Hansard from 1820 to 1981, as well as the public archives on Wellington Street.

Third, I completed my 2015 MLI study based exclusively on every annual report of Canada Post from 2000 to 2015, the annual CRTC media monitoring stats reports and the annual Payments Canada stats reports.

Fourth, I completed the 2024 study, “Canada Post: The Tipping Point Has Arrived”, using the same government sources and audits, but updated to 2024.

My final disclosure is that for 35 years, I've taught the strategy capstone course researching the competitiveness of firms and industries in Canada and the United States.

Before summarizing my empirical research over the past 25 years, I want to briefly mention the single most important analysis I've ever read concerning communications technology and policy, because it goes to the very core of all the issues you're discussing.

In 1995, MIT engineering prof Nicholas Negroponte, co-founder of Wired magazine and the very famous MIT Media Lab, wrote Being Digital. He argued that all of existence is composed of either atoms or electrons. Human bodies—mine and yours—and indeed any physical object, including trucks, planes and trains, are made of atoms, which have mass and weight. Einstein's laws of relativity limit the speed at which atoms can travel—i.e., very slowly. By contrast, any information that is digitized is composed of electrons, which have no mass and no weight. This means that electrons travel at the speed of electricity, which is almost the speed of light—300,000 kilometres per second.

From these principles of physics, Negroponte concluded that electrons everywhere in the world will always trump atoms in the realm of communications. From this, Negroponte predicted in 1995, astonishingly, the complete digital deconstruction of every western society over the next third of a century for everything informational, from post offices to newspapers to broadcasting to publishing to education to entertainment to banking to government to payments systems and to health care. He was absolutely correct, before any other person in the world.

My 2015 study of the audited annual reports of CPC revealed that the Negroponte trend started in Canada in 2006, with a steep decline of letters every year, without exception. My 2024 report brought the numbers up to date, showing the very same report with no exception. There were declines every year.

In the core business, you've already heard that the numbers declined from 5.5 billion to two billion pieces. However, some do not understand that these numbers continue to collapse going forward. Indeed, letter mail will mostly, I predict, disappear within 10 years, as the remaining small businesses that still use mail will digitize their value chains due to the Negropontian logic. Those few remaining elderly who still write letters will, sadly, die.

The second core business of parcels is very different, because e-commerce increases by 9% a year. However, during and after the pandemic, CPC lost over half its market share in parcels due to the entry of the gigs. In my 2024 report, I provided estimates of average operating costs for truck, driver and fuel. It's about $65 an hour for CPC, about $45 an hour for the big private contractor couriers and about $25 an hour for the gigs. Now you can understand why CPC is collapsing in parcels.

As the CEO and CFO stated in 2024, the current architecture is not sustainable with this decline. As I have stated for the last five years, long before Kaplan did, CPC was and is insolvent. It's unable to pay its bills as they become due. This is why the government provided a $1-billion bailout and will have to again and again—bigger and bigger—until it's restructured.

There are critics, probably in this room, who state that this doesn't matter, as it's an essential service. I argue that this is an error that assumes precisely what is being debated, because, first, CPC is not a going concern. It exists only because the government is saving it by a bailout.

Second, the alleged essential services provided are not essential. This is supported by the radical decline in usage by more and more people every year using the post office less and less. If it was essential, we wouldn't stop using the post office.

Third, it is argued that CPC doesn't need to make a profit; it's not different from National Defence. This is a false analogy, because defence is a pure public good that benefits everyone and is not divisible, whereas Canada Post delivers a private good that is divisible into discrete units: We call them letters with stamps.

In conclusion, this is not an argument to shut down or privatize the post office. However, it must be radically restructured to a much smaller entity—maybe 15,000, or maybe 20,000. I don't have the internal data from Canada Post that services those citizens most in need—approximately 15% of Canadians, which StatsCan estimates precisely at 5.9 million Canadians, and the rural and remote communities where there are no private alternatives.

Thank you very much.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Mr. Lee.

Mr. Ryder, I'll go over to you, sir.

Welcome to OGGO.

Marvin Ryder Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual

Thank you. I thought this committee was tough, but look at what Ian just told you there. My God, he scares you to death, doesn't he?

I'd like to make four points, if I can, in my five minutes. Much of this you've already heard, and I apologize for that, but I didn't know what other words you were going to hear.

First, Canada Post is a very sick company. If I were teaching this at the university, I would describe it as being in a death spiral. This is what we found with the Hudson's Bay Company, for instance. It's a Crown corporation backed by the Canadian government, and because no postal service in the world has failed in the last few years, I don't think it's necessarily going to be dead in six or 12 months, but clearly strong action is needed now, sooner rather than later. As I said in my little note, think months, not years in terms of the change.

Secondly, I'm fine with the changes being proposed by the federal government and the minister, who sat here just a few moments ago. Moving letter delivery to community mailboxes is fine. I've had a community mailbox for three decades. I absolutely love it. I actually view it as a service enhancement. I go away, and I don't worry about a porch poacher going through my mailboxes when I am not there.

It's the same thing with getting rid of Canada Post-owned post offices, probably in favour of franchises. I haven't been in a post office, again, for decades. I visit a Shoppers Drug Mart that has a Canada Post kiosk inside. It has longer service hours, and it operates seven days a week. That's an enhancement to the service that I used to get from Canada Post's own post office.

On slower delivery of mail from four days to seven days, I don't think most people will notice that, but I want to emphasize that while these are necessary changes, they are not sufficient.

Ms. Block pointed out some of the math problems. I'll just point out another one. If Canada Post is losing $1.5 billion this year, and you do these three things, you save $500 million. It's a step in the right direction, but you're still losing $1 billion. We have to go beyond that, which gets me to point three: Canada Post has to also generate more revenue. You can't cut your way or shrink your way to success. You have to find a way to generate more revenue.

The only bright spot is parcel mail. This is where they've lost the biggest volume, but they also have a couple of competitive advantages. Number one is that they serve every community in Canada. The private couriers have chosen to cherry-pick. They visit suburban areas and urban areas, but if you're in northern B.C. or if you're in the Magdalen Islands, it's too bad. FedEx can't get there. In fact, oddly, the private people subcontract to Canada Post at that point for the delivery.

How do you get back to a higher market share? For people sitting at this table, that means that a Crown corporation is going to have to try to take back market share from private companies. That raises lots of interesting philosophical issues.

I'm not keen on a postal bank or on postal insurance. I'm surprised Ian didn't mention this in his comments. We used to have a Canadian postal bank, and it shut a little over 60 years ago. If Canada Post were to get into the banking business, what competitive advantage would it have? It doesn't know the first thing about banking. Also, if you started a bank today, for it to generate any kind of significant profit, you'd be talking about years and years and years, and you do not have years and years and years.

About the only bright spot I could suggest is looking at other delivery partnerships. Canada Post has this army of workers out there who are trained at delivery. Are there other people who might need deliveries that they can go to?

Finally, if we're going to win back customers, if Canada Post is going to win back customers, it has to have stability. Therefore, I would agree with what the minister said around having a collective agreement. We also need a collective agreement that's not for six months or eight months or a year. We need a three-year or a four-year collective agreement, so that we can get some harmony out there as it goes....

I'll be honest with you, though. As I sit here today, I don't know how you achieve that. I suspect that if I were a member of the union, I would want to sign a collective agreement that gave me job guarantees. Bless your heart, Ian, for suggesting.... I'm not going to go to quite as big a number as him, but I think we're looking at at least 10,000 employees who need to be either encouraged to retire or perhaps given severances to go. No union is going to want to agree to that as you go forward. They want to keep every job that they have today.

I don't quite know how you're going to find that labour harmony that is so necessary, but if you can get that harmony and then you free up Canada Post to tackle some of these tough issues, I think there is a future for it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much, Mr. Ryder.

We'll start with Mrs. Block, please, for six minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to thank both of our witnesses for joining us today.

I have to admit that this is much more interesting than I thought it would be. I've really appreciated your testimony here. It's caused me to wonder why you both, Mr. Ryder and Mr. Lee, can speculate on the number of jobs that could be lost. We heard from our minister earlier that he didn't give that a thought, because it's not his job. I think that's an interesting take-away for me.

I'm going to direct my first questions to Mr. Lee.

You have long commented on the future of Canada Post, the postal services here in Canada, with an obviously long-standing interest in that corporation. Would you say that you believe that the government has been aware of the deteriorating state of the postal service for some time, as you have indicated?

4:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Ian Lee

Yes, and I realize that my answer is going to sound self-serving, so I'll just disclose that right away.

I was asked to testify in 2016 before the blue ribbon panel set up by the then newly elected Trudeau government. They appointed a blue ribbon panel; it's been well published. Everybody knows that panel. I went before it, and I had just published the year before my 2015 Macdonald-Laurier Institute report, with all the data on the losses and declines and so forth.

I had in there the radical surgery that I recommended, which was franchising all post offices, ending delivery five days a week and ending home delivery to the 25% of Canadians who are privileged to get home delivery. For full disclosure before anyone attacks me, yes, I'm one of those people. I shouldn't be getting home delivery to my door, but I do, although there are no letters coming anyway, so it doesn't matter.

To your question, I put some very precise recommendations in that report. I was there testifying for probably three hours, and they rejected the advice, the very concrete recommendations. Then I disclosed them in the media, in questions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm absolutely certain the then prime minister and Dominic LeBlanc, the minister responsible, rejected it, as did CUPW, as did the management of Canada Post. I'm not trying to point the finger at one person. Everybody said, “No, no, no.”

I think their basic argument was this, very quickly: Yes, the letters are declining very precipitously, but it's come to an end. It's going to plateau, and the problem is going to be okay, because we're going to stabilize it at lower than 5.5 billion letters, but it's not going to be that bad.

My response was that there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the decline had plateaued. Any one of you can look at the decline, and every year it goes down by 6% to 8% to 9% in the pieces of letter mail delivered. It's not because of something I'm doing. It's what Negroponte pointed out, that the economics of digitization just overwhelm the physical distribution of letters and mail.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much.

There was the blue ribbon panel in 2016. In 2017 the task force suggested changes. The committee did a report, years of posting losses, and still the government didn't approve the strategic plans being put forward by Canada Post for five years.

Would either of you like to comment on that?

4:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual

Marvin Ryder

I'll maybe put a different spin from Ian on this.

I think 10 years ago, when Ian testified, you had a fairly healthy Canada Post, and we find the need for change is harder to get through when things look fairly healthy.

However, it was five years ago, around 2020, that you had the first significant signs that something wasn't right at Canada Post. Unfortunately, that was also when the country was facing COVID. I think, if I was in government—which I'm not—which challenge would I face first, a pandemic or the situation at Canada Post? Probably people prioritized the pandemic.

Again, I would think that the government should have dealt with this sooner rather than later. I was surprised, when Mr. Kaplan submitted his report in May, that we didn't get a response until September. The report is very clear on what it had to say, and I was waiting for it to drop in.

I think there's good reason perhaps to say that we've been slow, but again, in my world, late is better than never.

4:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Ian Lee

Can I add to that? I don't disagree at all—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm sorry; I have to interrupt, Mr. Lee. I'm afraid Mrs. Block's time is up, but perhaps you can get a response in during the next intervention.

We'll go to Mr. Gasparro, please, for five minutes.

Vince Gasparro Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you both very much for your very detailed presentations. If there was a window that was open on a higher floor, I could jump out of it. It was pretty stark.

Mr. Ryder, you made some comments about Denmark. Denmark's postal service has been the canary in the coal mine. Denmark's postal service is ending letter delivery after a 90% decline in mail volume and a strong national digitization strategy.

Can you speak to the key factors that made this possible in Denmark, such as digital infrastructure, government public policy or cultural readiness more broadly?

4:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual

Marvin Ryder

I'd have to give you a two-part answer to that.

First, although they say the post office itself is discontinuing letter mail, they have another organization there, called Dao, which delivers newspapers and magazines. As of January 1, 2026, they're going to pick up the letter mail. Also, it costs $6 per letter in Denmark to mail a letter. It's $1.44 in Canada.

The other key thing here—and Ian, bless his heart, has been saying for some years that we should be getting rid of letter mail altogether—is that digitization has not yet put us in a position to do that in Canada. We haven't digitized.

What do I mean by that? You get a digital passport. I still have a physical one. I used it today. How about a digital credit card? Well, I still get a physical credit card. I still get a physical driver's licence. I still get a physical health card. Denmark digitized many of those things; therefore, they were not using the mail to send them. When we had the strike back in November and December, there were all kinds of worried Canadians: “How am I going to get my passport to take my trip? What am I going to do?” Until you digitize those, we're still going to need letter mail.

To Ian's point, he's absolutely right. I call it the canary in the coal mine. If I look out 10 years from now, assuming digitization solves those things and makes them go away.... By the way, neither of us has mentioned AI. God knows what AI is going to do. I think that 10 years from now, yes, letter mail could be dead here in Canada.

Vince Gasparro Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

If you want to add something, sir, go ahead.

4:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Ian Lee

I do.

I don't want to leave anyone with the idea that the process of digitization is over. We are in the middle of it, or perhaps two-thirds down the road. We can quibble over whether or not it's two-thirds of the road.

In the next 10 years, we know.... There are discussions in many countries, including Canada, about digital passports, digital driver's licences and digital health cards. That's coming. We know it's coming. My point is that we won't be dealing with a.... I didn't say we should end letter mail; I said we should be planning on its very imminent demise, so that we don't have to worry about it.

We should really be focusing on what Marvin said: How are they going to get back into the game in parcels? That is their core business—parcels and letters—and if they don't get back into parcels, then their future is very bleak. I don't believe they have a snowball's chance in hell—pardon my language—of getting into banking. We have one of the most dynamic and brutally competitive bank systems in the world, which is why the French banks didn't come in, or the Germans, the Swiss, the Americans or the British. They know they wouldn't make it here.

Vince Gasparro Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I guess in my—

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Our interpreters are extremely talented, but they are having trouble keeping up with the witnesses and may not be hearing everything that's being said. They cannot do their job properly. I know; they've told me so. It might be a good idea to remind witnesses to speak more slowly.