Evidence of meeting #10 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was i've.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I think probably all of us in the room should slow down our cadence in our speech a tiny bit.
We'll go back to Mr. Gasparro. You have a minute.
Liberal
Vince Gasparro Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
You touched on parcels. I'll be really quick. Could you guys please provide the strategies you would recommend to help Canada Post regain some market share in parcels and compete more effectively with the private sector?
Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual
Canada Post has two competitive advantages in that area. One is that they serve every community in Canada, every mailbox in Canada. The private people don't, so that's one advantage.
The second advantage is their prices. We haven't talked necessarily about a big jump in postal rates. Most small business people were very reluctant to move to the other delivery people, because they get a much better deal from Canada Post.
They did leave, however, because they weren't certain the parcel would get there, and until we get some harmony back in the marketplace, so that it's not Russian roulette, I think those people are staying away.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
I'll just add that I agree with what Marvin said completely. I think—
October 23rd, 2025 / 4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm sorry, Mr. Lee. We're out of time, but perhaps in the next intervention....
We'll go to Ms. Gaudreau, please.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Mr. Chair, obviously, if I speak very quickly, it'll be difficult for the interpreters to do their job. When I'm true to myself and express myself in my mother tongue, I feel like there's not enough time. I know I've missed a lot of things in the discussion. What the witnesses have said seems very relevant, and I wouldn't want them to repeat themselves. I just need to point out that I feel discriminated against. There. I've said it.
What I take from your opening remarks is that, for the corporation to be profitable, it may need to be privatized. Now, you're referring to urban areas. Yes, Îles-de-la-Madeleine and other regions have been talked about, but Canada Post's competitors have no interest in mail delivery in those communities. I could even add my community of Mont-Laurier to that list.
There are 41 million people in Canada living at 17 million addresses. I wonder whether we want to go through the same thing as other countries that privatized an essential service. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual
I apologize, but I'm not getting any interpretation, so I didn't really understand what you said.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
It's the same here. I didn't get the interpretation either.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We'll pause for a moment, and I'll get IT to check both connections.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm sorry for that interruption. We are back.
We'll start at the very beginning for you, Madame Gaudreau.
Thank you very much.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
If Canada Post is to continue providing services to all Quebeckers and Canadians, I question the idea of privatization. Canada has a population of 41 million. I'm in business, so I understand the concept of cost and profitability. Should we go ahead or not? Other countries that privatized their postal service have not met the goal of providing service to everyone.
How can Canada Post be profitable while delivering to 17 million addresses from coast to coast?
Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual
Let me just say quickly that I'm not advocating privatization. I don't necessarily think we're at that stage in the game to consider it. Certainly, I am advocating that Canada Post take on the private delivery people and try to gain back the market share. I also think it should be looking at other kinds of partnerships that it can bring value to as it goes forward.
Ladies and gentlemen, you do have an alternative strategy here. Again, using quick math, if you have 17 million households and each household paid a $100-a-year Canada Post tax, you'd have $1.7 billion. I've witnessed from afar how people reacted to carbon taxes. I have a feeling that Canada Post taxes wouldn't be loved any better, but that is an alternative. In the United States, they have done that to some extent. They've dipped into their own treasury to fund the U.S. postal service.
I would like to encourage management to do it on their own. Give them the best chance before we say that we should dip into our pockets and pay.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
I'll go a bit differently. I think that in Canada we have already de facto—not de jure—privatized much of the post office in the biggest cities, like the Calgarys, the Montreals and the GTAs, etc. If you look at the stats and break it down, the national, regional and local private couriers have taken over a very large chunk of the business in the bigger cities in Canada. However, they haven't in the rural and remote communities, so I think we have to really look at the future of Canada Post. There are two completely different scenarios.
In the cities, I know all kinds of people who just don't use the post office. I'm talking about business and about individuals. If you go to the rural.... I grew up on a farm in rural eastern Ontario, in Lanark County. If you go to these small towns and communities, they're very dependent. I'm sure it's the same in rural Quebec.
I think we have to come up with two different solutions. One is for the rural and remote, because their needs are completely different, and there are no alternatives. In the urban areas across Canada, many Canadians have abandoned the post office, which is why there was not this huge blowback, as we saw in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, with the postal strike.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I like what I'm hearing, Mr. Lee.
You probably have access to bandwidth and Internet, but you also have what it takes in that you're very smart.
What about people in unique situations, people with an intellectual or physical disability? Unless we can show that they'll receive the service, not only where they live, but also in a way that meets their needs, it's like we’re abandoning them. There's the distance element, but a high percentage of Canadians are illiterate or don't have a cell phone. Just a few kilometres from here on the way to my riding, there are areas where there's no reception. We have to be careful with technology; people are afraid of AI. As you can appreciate, gentlemen, lawmakers do not move fast enough to keep up with technology.
I am out of time, but I would like to thank you both. This discussion has given me a good idea of what the situation looks like.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks.
Mr. Patzer is next, please, and we'll do our five-minute rounds.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Thank you very much.
Maybe I'll chuck this out there for both of you.
Purolator, for example, which is actually owned by Canada Post—at least to the tune of 91%—in the first half of 2025 turned a $101-million profit.
Does either of you know what their market share of parcel delivery is in Canada and why that is not a model that Canada Post is looking to use, when they actually own that very company?
Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual
I don't know.
Ian, do you know what the market share is?
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
I don't have the market share for the courier companies, but I do want to point out—because I did look at them—that if you look at their head count, forget 65,000 and forget 25,000.
I'm not trying to justify it, because you know what I've advocated for on that side, but all the major courier companies in this country are in the 5,000 to 12,000 head count range. I just looked it up in their annual report, and 75% of the Canada Post cost structure is wages.
When people say we're going to downsize Canada Post but we're not going to get rid of people, well, it's not possible. The arithmetic doesn't work.
Associate Professor, Marketing and Entrepreneurship, DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, As an Individual
Going back to your point about Purolator, remember that it is like the other courier companies: It really only serves the urban and suburban markets, so it's able to cherry-pick. They also charge a higher cost. It's $1.44 to mail a letter in Canada. It's not $1.44 to ship something by Purolator.
That business has taken the high end of the market, and it competes very successfully against the other courier companies. Canada Post offers a different kind of service.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Mr. Lee, I didn't read your 2015 report line for line, but I definitely flipped through it and read a good chunk of it. If the government at that time had implemented your report, what standing would Canada Post have today, and what would it look like today?
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
It would not be hemorrhaging the cash that it's hemorrhaging now. In fact, I don't believe it would be losing money, but remember, I did advocate pretty radical surgery. I said to franchise all the post offices. I agree with what Marvin said. They give great service. I've been going to a Shoppers Drug Mart franchise for a long time.
To your question, based on the $400 million for the door-to-door service for 25% of Canadians, in 10 years at $400 million or $500 million—and Deloitte estimated at the time it was $500 million—there is $5 billion. That's the accumulated loss of the last eight years—just that savings alone.
If they had ended the universal service delivery of five days a week for the 17 million addresses, there would have been savings there, yes, and the reduction in head count would have been massive, and then by franchising the post offices, you would have been talking in the billions of dollars.
I want to get this out for everybody. This will not bring back letter mail; it will not. We're not going back to writing letters to our dear old grandmama. Those days are gone. The old analog economy is gone, and we're deep into the digital economy, but it would have given Canada Post a lot of degrees of freedom and a lot more money to reinvest into parcels to recover their game. If they had done this 10 years ago, they could have literally saved billions on those costs that they absorbed needlessly.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
The minister was here and basically tried to say that it was only recently that the struggles have really happened.
You're indicating that, obviously, as far back as 2015 it needed drastic measures. You had the foresight to know that. Why didn't the government, when they had 10 years and didn't do anything?
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
I'm guessing it was because it's such a political hot potato, and this came out of my thesis.
I want to be very careful and very delicate, but CUPW has a reputation for being the most militant union in the federal public service. If anybody wants to challenge me on that, I can point you to pages.... It ended up that one-third of my thesis was on all of the strikes in Canada Post. They weren't called CUPW then, but postal workers were involved in the 1919 general strike in Winnipeg. I'm not criticizing them, and I'm not condemning them. I'm simply saying that it's much more militant than the other public sector unions in the Government of Canada, so it could have been a reluctance to go down that road and engage in a long, protracted strike.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Basically, what you're saying is that the political will of the government of the last 10 years to act wasn't there.